Alistair Campbell

So I think actually they should use this to say there are going to be

We're going to have global summits about the environment, and America and China won't be there.

We're going to have a global summit about the effect of AI, and America and China won't be there.

You make it specific.

We are middle powers in this new hegemonic world that he described, and we are going to have structures that come together on a regular basis.

And you can have people who don't necessarily share all your values.

You would maybe have the Emiratis and the Saudis there.

But you're discussing common challenges in a new forum.

And I just think that's not a bad way to go.

You can also, by the way, you could invite states.

You could invite California.

He doesn't give up, though, does he?

I just think there'd be something very invigorating and exciting about a body that basically said, this is a body for the middle powers.

So part of the challenge they're all dealing with all the time without being very open about it is how do you deal with the United States and the China in their current form?

Have a discussion about that.

And I just think that Carney's really onto something with this.

And we've got to grow up

And stop, because the truth is, look, America is incredibly powerful.

But I think the other thing that you sensed at Davos was that if those other countries did actually sort of find a way of coming together, America becomes a bit of a show, as opposed to what Trump projected at, which is all powerful.

It's not all powerful.