Andrew Marantz

Yeah. Are you too scared to talk about taboo things? Can't we just push the boundaries, right? Those things all kind of redound to the political benefit of the movement that is, you know, transgression and the thrill of forbidden knowledge is one of the most appealing things in the rhetorical playbook.

But just to stick on the Hungary example, first time I did a reporting trip to Hungary was 2022 when they announced that CPAC was going to be held in Hungary, the first European CPAC. And I first heard that and said, that must be a troll. Like, that's too on the nose. You wouldn't have CPAC in the only authoritarian country in Europe if it's 2022 and you're trying to win re-election. But they did.

But just to stick on the Hungary example, first time I did a reporting trip to Hungary was 2022 when they announced that CPAC was going to be held in Hungary, the first European CPAC. And I first heard that and said, that must be a troll. Like, that's too on the nose. You wouldn't have CPAC in the only authoritarian country in Europe if it's 2022 and you're trying to win re-election. But they did.

And I went. And there was this whole saga about whether they would let me in. And they kind of, again, with the sort of gaslighting and the hybridity, they were like, sure, sure. We love independent media. You can surely come in. And then in the end, they didn't let me in. And then I had to sneak in. It was a whole thing. But... While I was there, Orban had just been reelected.

And I went. And there was this whole saga about whether they would let me in. And they kind of, again, with the sort of gaslighting and the hybridity, they were like, sure, sure. We love independent media. You can surely come in. And then in the end, they didn't let me in. And then I had to sneak in. It was a whole thing. But... While I was there, Orban had just been reelected.

The resistance, the sort of popular front against him thought they had a chance to beat him, and it turned out they really did not.

The resistance, the sort of popular front against him thought they had a chance to beat him, and it turned out they really did not.

And one of his first speeches in Parliament, he did a whole thing about the Great Replacement Theory, which used to be this fringe alt-right idea that the international Jew, among others, are trying to engineer this whole conspiracy to let in these scary brown hordes and overwhelm majority white nations with invaders. That used to be like crazy, crazy fringe 4chan stuff.

And one of his first speeches in Parliament, he did a whole thing about the Great Replacement Theory, which used to be this fringe alt-right idea that the international Jew, among others, are trying to engineer this whole conspiracy to let in these scary brown hordes and overwhelm majority white nations with invaders. That used to be like crazy, crazy fringe 4chan stuff.

And over the time that I had been covering it, it went from... the fringe discredited theory known as great replacement theory to the thing Tucker Carlson is saying every night on his show to the thing Victor Orban is saying in parliament to now the things that members of Congress are saying in the US.

And over the time that I had been covering it, it went from... the fringe discredited theory known as great replacement theory to the thing Tucker Carlson is saying every night on his show to the thing Victor Orban is saying in parliament to now the things that members of Congress are saying in the US.

I mean, so to be clear, I would agree with Zach's broad point that Trump is not doing it the Orban way and that Trump is impulsive and that the tariffs hurt him. And so I think we all broadly agree that the laws of political gravity have not been suspended.

I mean, so to be clear, I would agree with Zach's broad point that Trump is not doing it the Orban way and that Trump is impulsive and that the tariffs hurt him. And so I think we all broadly agree that the laws of political gravity have not been suspended.

I mean, one of the important points that people made to me over and over again while I was reporting this piece is even if you call it authoritarianism, and many of the people I spoke to did, many of the political scientists I spoke to, including some of the, we spoke to some of the same political scientists, they told me flat out, America is currently not a democracy. And yet in the next breath.

I mean, one of the important points that people made to me over and over again while I was reporting this piece is even if you call it authoritarianism, and many of the people I spoke to did, many of the political scientists I spoke to, including some of the, we spoke to some of the same political scientists, they told me flat out, America is currently not a democracy. And yet in the next breath.

Well, so it was interesting. So Stephen Levitsky, who was one of the co-authors of How Democracies Die, he also was a co-author of this really seminal paper where he defined, he invented the term competitive authoritarianism. I spoke to him and his co-author on that paper, Lucan Way. And when I talked to both of them, and I said, where are we on the map of history right now?

Well, so it was interesting. So Stephen Levitsky, who was one of the co-authors of How Democracies Die, he also was a co-author of this really seminal paper where he defined, he invented the term competitive authoritarianism. I spoke to him and his co-author on that paper, Lucan Way. And when I talked to both of them, and I said, where are we on the map of history right now?

They said, we have crossed the line. We are no longer a democracy. They had written this piece called The Path to American Authoritarianism, and they said, we are on that path, and we are, in fact, past the line. They didn't say we're past the point of no return, because the definition of- But what is the line? It's a little squishy what the line is.

They said, we have crossed the line. We are no longer a democracy. They had written this piece called The Path to American Authoritarianism, and they said, we are on that path, and we are, in fact, past the line. They didn't say we're past the point of no return, because the definition of- But what is the line? It's a little squishy what the line is.

To back up, one thing I said, because I was thinking about metaphors, and we were talking about, you know, where in the Schrodinger's cat of democracy are we? One thing that I think is a real flaw in the metaphor is, you know, we're writers. We think about metaphors.