Bella Freud

And I went to see him in concert even.

I managed to get to see him.

And that was a real game changer.

Yeah.

Because you described enrolling into St.

Martin's to study women's wear and realizing you had no idea how you wanted a woman to dress.

And you found your fashion compass in the millinery department.

What is the difference between a dress designer and a hat designer?

Because you mentioned something about a difference in ego, that a designer has to have more ego than a milliner.

What did you mean by that?

Who's this, Vivian or Ray?

I know.

It was always impossible.

I mean, I know it's an obvious thing, but working with Vivian, trying to fathom out what she might like and having to go completely sort of limp within and lose opinion and just flow with whatever it was that she...

but hadn't even entirely articulated and just be there waiting to put something into action.

And it was a great, a great discipline because, you know, the fashion to be nice to everyone didn't exist then.

And it wasn't a bad thing either to be helped, you know, to be pushed in that way.

And, um,

I really value her sort of sneers of absolute contempt at some of my suggestions and the other ones where she really relied on me for something, something or other that I was able to offer.

She sometimes did.