Brad Watts
Appearances
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And, you know.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So this is interesting. And it's interesting to me because in our response to the original letter, Gabe, I remember us talking about how important it is to live in the ambiguity and complexity of the real world.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
When it came to those friends who were like, I don't know how badly to feel for you. Your family is the exception to the rule. We were like, OK, well, we can recognize that bail reform might be well intended and help some decent people. And these laws are imperfect and have unintended consequences, like enabling a freaking monster to try to kill someone's entire family.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Because that matters, too, and ostensibly matters more than, you know, letting people out of jail. I fell on one side of the fence pretty quickly after reading that letter.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former jihadis, arms traffickers, mafia enforcers, astronauts, neuroscientists. This week, we had Scott Galloway, author of Algebra of Wealth, not just on investing, but how wealth actually builds, career advice, great for anyone at any age, any stage of their career.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Exactly. Because, sure, someone might be able to keep their job after being caught with a dime bag of weed. Fine. But somebody else's mother and grandmother and pets get murdered by a psychopath in an arson. Right. So Dan's letter, to me, that's part of appreciating that ambiguity. We're hearing some interesting arguments for bail reform now.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And while it doesn't change the facts of our friend's story whatsoever, I'm still so angry and freaked out for her, honestly. Dan's letter also challenges the easy narrative of, well, we shouldn't touch bail reform because it's not worth it. Everyone behind bars is a monster. And on that level, I appreciate it. I'll be honest, I still struggle with it, but I appreciate it.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And just FYI, I feel very out of my depth talking about this. I'm not a public policy expert by any means, definitely not a bail reform expert. I'm learning about this topic as I go. So Dan's main argument seems to be that eliminating bail for most misdemeanor and nonviolent felony charges reduced recidivism. For people who don't know, recidivism is the tendency of a criminal to reoffend.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So he's saying re-arrest rates dropped as a result of eliminating bail from 55 to 44% for all arrests and from 27 to 24% for felony arrests, which to be honest, those numbers sound fairly modest, but an 11% difference, a 3% difference, I know that represents thousands and thousands of people whose lives are impacted. And I think we can all agree that reducing recidivism is a good goal.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
But then I think, well, okay, that's for misdemeanor and nonviolent felony charges. Great. I'm not nearly as worried about those people. But this guy, the attempted murderer from the original letter, he kept getting arrested for domestic violence. That is a violent crime. It's a totally different category. So how can the law not take that into account?
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Can we not let violent abusers out of jail if they can't put up bail and let the guy who was busted with... freaking shrooms on the subway? Can we let that guy go? That doesn't seem crazy to me. That sounds like responsible policy.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Well, right. And again, this is where I can appreciate both sides of the argument. On one hand, we lock up way too many people in this country. Our jails and prisons are overcrowded. They're horrible. It's hugely expensive. It ruins people's lives. The whole goal is for people to get better and stay out of prison. So yes, of course, I'm all for reducing recidivism.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
But then you have a story like the one our friend shared, and it's like, okay, is reducing the percentage of re-arrests, especially if the drop in re-arrest is relatively modest, is that worth allowing our friend's mom to be murdered by a psycho arsonist abuser? I'm just not so sure about that.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And I can totally appreciate the counter-argument that we need to work at the level of statistics, we can't get every single story right, because yes, here we have a mother who was almost murdered by her abuser who was let out because of bail reform, but there are also countless stories about equally real people whose lives were ruined by committing a dumb crime and not having the money to post bail.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So I get that, and I'm not dismissing that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Look, he might be right about that. The media can tell whatever story it wants to tell, and these stories are juicy. They're shocking. I can picture the New York Post and the local news playing up stories about how violent crimes in New York are up and how reckless liberal officials are to blame.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Scott and I often go well off book, off the book that he writes, because I always have great questions for him. We always have a great conversation. Always a good episode with Scott Galloway. Also, we had a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on fluoride. Fluoride in the water, namely.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Exactly. But then I got to ask, how do we know which stories are and aren't associated with bail reform, really? I mean, our friend's story definitely happened because of bail reform, or at least bail reform enabled her abuser to keep targeting her mom. Because let's remember, her mom also kept choosing that guy on some level, which is part of what was so complicated about the story.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
That's right. So that's fascinating, too. So that's another wrinkle here. According to her, certain media outlets don't want to hype up the connection between violent crime and bail reform. Is it because it's irresponsible to do so, or is it because it sort of contradicts a narrative that they would like to push that this thing needs to happen?
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
But again, at a minimum, we have to admit that at least one almost tragedy happened because judges were forced to let pieces of crap like this guy out of jail On the same day, I'll never forget, she said he was often out of jail faster than her mother was out of the hospital after he beat her up.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So however the media covers this story, it doesn't change the reality on the ground, which is why hearing people's stories directly like our friend's story is actually so important. All that to say, I really do appreciate this chance to consider the other side of the argument. As you can see, I'm not entirely swayed by it, especially after hearing a story like the one we've been talking about.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
But I can also make room for the fact that there's a really tragic and complicated relationship among demographics, criminal behavior, arrest rates, money, and the idea that there are two different justice systems in this country, one for rich people, one for poor people. That kind of sucks. I mean, I think everyone knows that that's unjust.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So I feel for the guy who loses his job for stealing a car or whatever because he can't pay $1,000 to post bail, but also he stole someone's car. So like... I don't know. Maybe don't steal a car, bro, and then you won't have this problem. But I also know that those are not the only people who are being let out of jail because of bail reform.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Clearly, the system is allowing some actually very dangerous people to slip through the cracks. So my question is, and I invite anyone to answer this for themselves, I honestly don't know the answer. What's more important, reducing arrests and protecting low-level criminals or protecting victims of violent people? Because that's what this seems to come down to.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
On Fridays, though, we take your letters, offer advice, dredge up super weird stories from our highly questionable pasts. Speaking of which, Gabe, did I ever tell you I witnessed a double murder in Panama? I'm sorry, what? Yeah, it was, so this made national news. Double murder. Murder in Panama?
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I want to believe you can do both by having responsible reform, but obviously that is easier said than done and you cannot account for every single case. Fascinating topic. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
If reckless doctors compromised your friend's mental health, your partner might be hiding a dark past. Ooh, that one hits home. or your grandparents helped an immigrant with a violent past illegally enter the country, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Before we move on, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser. People are loving this, Gabe. This is so fun. People hit reply. We start these really cool conversations. This newsletter is a bite-sized gem from us to you, right to your inbox once a week on Wednesday. It is a two-minute read. That's the goal. You can apply it. It's highly practical.
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is a great companion to the show, sign up over at jordanharbinger.com slash news.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Great one. Yeah. You know, I'm honored. I'm glad I'm not Doo Doo.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Oh, okay. That sucks. So he went from a traditional job to like Instacart because his bosses raided the company 401k? That is horrible. I hope they are in prison.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
When I was working at the embassy in Panama, this is like in 2002. There's so many weird things and we haven't even gotten into the story.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
You know, it sure sounds like it, and I can't say that I blame the guy. He's shouldering a crazy burden right now.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Well, first of all, I am so sorry that you and your brother had to say goodbye to your mom. Cancer man, it sucks. It sounds like your brother was really there for her and for you in a big way during that period, and that, that's wonderful, what a gift. But I'm sure it was very painful, and I truly hope you guys are holding up okay. Man, your brother is really going through it.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
He's had some objectively tough breaks. He's come up against some very real adversity. Having a child with special needs, I don't think anybody would argue that that's, it's gotta be one of the hardest things you can do as a parent, is taking care of a child, and somebody with special needs just adds to that amazing workload.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
His company goes under because of the embezzlement where people stole his retirement fund, so that's massively destabilizing financially, psychologically. It also sounds like he's responded to that adversity in ways that are making it harder to bounce back from in ways that are creating new challenges. So I actually have a lot of compassion for him. This is a lot for anybody to go through.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So I had an internship there and I ended up working with like these anti-narco people. Sure. All that I did was book travel for Panamanian officials to go to Las Vegas and party and attend meetings, air quotes, with people from Washington, D.C. The whole thing was like, please cooperate with us because your country is a massive transit point for cocaine.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I also hear you when you say, look, I know he's in charge of his own life, but he seems like he's on a sinking ship that keeps shooing away life preservers and he's not the only one on the boat. I feel you. And that's a really tough position to be in because how he handles his life, that affects his son. It affects his ex-wife. It obviously is affecting you.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So on one hand, yes, you do ultimately have to let him figure this out on his own, in his own time, if and when he's ready. On the other hand, because his decisions and mental health are affecting you and other people in his life, it's absolutely fair and appropriate to speak up and to try to help him. So the answer to your question is more art than science, more process than solution.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I think you need to keep building lots of trust and rapport with your brother if you aren't already. I think you need to make him feel understood by you, empathized with, not in a performative way, and it sounds to me like you do have some genuine empathy for him, even when he drives you a little nuts, and it's important that he feels that.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And I think you need to invite him to talk about where he is these days, not just the circumstances of his life, but the feelings that come with it and his overall worldview. Because what you're up against with your brother, oh, it's a lot of things. You're right. He's probably depressed, which might be the result of losing your mom. It might even predate your mom.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
He's grieving your mom, which is probably contributing to the depression, or maybe the depression is a response to the feelings that the grief is bringing up. It also sounds like their relationship was complicated. You kind of mentioned enmeshment. There's a whole other layer. to your brother.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
which I think there's probably so much more to know about that. I'm sure there's an aspect of that that's self-protection. There's also probably a lot of fear. There's anger. There's cynicism.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
He might also be so wounded by what happened with those executives, and understandably so, that he's just not even about risking that happening again, which, okay, super unlikely to happen again, but more just going back to the scene of the crime, so to speak, being vulnerable to people and systems that have the potential to hurt you again. I get it.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And they're like, cool, I think we should talk about this at a five-star hotel in Las Vegas for five days. And they're like, Jordan, book it.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Exactly. She's really up against his nihilism here.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Right, that sounds a lot like, oh man, what is the word for that?
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Right, oh, therapy.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
That's the word. Yeah, sorry, it's been a while. It's been almost seven minutes since we've mentioned it.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So we can stop those dime bags from coming in. No, it's stop kilos of cocaine. And by stop, I mean do absolutely nothing to stem the flow of narcotics. But anyway. Yeah. There's an island, I want to say it's called Bocas del Toro or something like that. It was like a sort of vacation-y spot. And we went to these islands and we were just walking around.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Totally agree. Ultimately, you're already onto the answer here, which is you can't make him take back power over his life, but you can try to help him begin a process that might lead to more hope, more empowerment. Therapy is a big piece of that. Relationships are a big piece of that. Some high quality self-help could be a part of it. Exposing your brother to books and talks and
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
influences, not influencers, but influences that are healthy and positive, and just being there for him generally and encouraging him to open up to you.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
There might be some shortcuts here, like making your brother realize he's taken a massive risk by not having health insurance and he needs to get some, or pushing away his ex by self-isolating, or putting you in a tough position by staying in the apartment when he needs to move his stuff out of your garage.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I'm not saying you should look for ways to be petty or create unnecessary stress in the guy's life, but sometimes we need to be shocked out of our stupor a little bit, galvanized into making a choice. One choice can lead to another choice, which can lead to more choices and taking action in that way. Sometimes that brings us back into a real relationship with life.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And maybe that'll create the momentum he needs to tackle some of the bigger stuff. But I do think that the big process is really going to come from deep and ongoing work. And that's his work to do. So keep letting your brother know that you love him, that you're there for him. Keep gently nudging him to a more vulnerable, optimistic place.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
But while you do that, also keep an eye on your needs, your feelings, because like you said, he's not the only one on this boat. And it might be good for him to see how his way of dealing with things is affecting the most important people in his life. Doing that without spooking him or shaming him in a way that inspires him to take action rather than shut down further, that's your challenge.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
It's a tough line to walk, but it's doable. Sending you and your brother a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what you won't have to embezzle money from your company's retirement fund in order to enjoy? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
We see this huge crowd of people outside our hotel, across the street. There was sort of like a local bar. And then I noticed like people are screaming. screaming. And then I saw people standing on the roof of our hotel and like leaning out the window and they're like, guys, get in the hotel quickly. You better get out of there.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Amazing. Great work.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Yeah, well done. Amazing what getting out ahead of a problem can do. Scary in the short term, way better in the long term.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And we were just like, okay, but you're just one floor up on the roof. So obviously it's not gunfire or anything. And we ran in our hotel and we ran up to where those guys were because they were like hanging out on the roof essentially that was accessible. And we're like, what's up?
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Signed. Oh, here we go. Should I come back in 10 minutes?
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I should be done in like 30 minutes. Yeah, I'll go grab some sweet green. There's one two towns over.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Wow, that might have been... When I'm coming to the realization...
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Are you done? Yeah, I'm done. Okay. All right. That sign-off was more convoluted than this company's internal messaging. Do not get any ideas from this listener. If y'all encourage Gabe's worst tendencies, this show is going to be three hours long every single week.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Exactly, with some creepy travel stories sprinkled in. So this is actually a really good question. First of all, like I said, good on you for looking at the situation and going, okay, I can't control the way my company communicates, but I can control how I communicate.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And then treating this challenge as an opportunity to address your anxiety and try things in a new way, which sounds like it changed your results pretty dramatically. That is excellent, awesome. I'm super proud of you for that. Second, working at companies like this is... It's super frustrating. It's very challenging.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I can almost guarantee that you're not the only person at the company who's struggling with it. And feeling like you're stuck there, that just makes this worse because you'll probably feel very limited and disempowered, and I'm sure that that's contributing to the resentment that you feel. So here's what I would do if I were you. I think you're gonna have a hard time changing your company culture.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
and they were like, look down there, and there's people fighting, and this dude just busts out a knife and stabs these two dudes, and they just collapse into a massive puddle of blood. Everyone clears out, people are screaming. I go down there later, because I'm like, there's two dead guys or dying guys in the road. No one comes to help, of course.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
There's 50 people working there. That's a big operation, big-ish, right? It's not like it's an eight-person company where you can walk into the president's office or pull everyone into a huddle and be like, hey, guys, I think we can do better at communicating. Here's how we do it. but that doesn't mean you can't flag this with the higher-ups and invite them to at least consider it.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
The way I would do that is, well, first of all, I'd casually talk to some of your colleagues and see if they're experiencing the same thing. Like I said, my hunch is that they are, but it's important to talk to other people to really make sure this isn't just a you thing, and also find out how they're dealing with this communication thing.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
If it's impacting their jobs as much as it's impacting yours, what they might be doing differently, whether they also want things to change, because that's super valuable information. And you might pick up a few clever strategies. If you talk to them and they're like, oh my God, yes, I'm constantly confused. No one proactively gives me work. I never know what I'm supposed to be doing.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
It's so stressful. That's great data. And there's a version of this where you and your colleagues all go to some of the higher ups and share your thoughts. Or you write a brief letter outlining these challenges. Or you bring them up in an all hands meeting or whatever. And you say, hey guys, a bunch of us are noticing this challenge in the office.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
We want to share it with you because it's something we feel we can all work on. And if we communicated better, we'd be able to get a lot more done and do much better work in XYZ ways. That's totally fair. As long as you deliver it in a spirit of kindness, humility, genuinely wanting to contribute to the solution, whether your leaders will actually do something with that, TBD on that, I suppose.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And that would be another thing I'd bring up to your colleagues when you talk to them. Like, if we shared this with the higher-ups, do you think they would listen? how would they respond? Would this be helpful or would they just brush it off and then turn on us? That'll inform your strategy too.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
But listen, whether you bring this up with your company or not, I absolutely think you should continue improving communication on your part because ultimately that's all you can truly control. And even if your company were great at communicating, you'd still need to be great at it yourself. I promise you, there is no workplace out there that is perfect in the communication department.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
There's always going to be gaps. There's always going to be quirks. There's always going to be difficult people who create dysfunction that require good communication to address. And you've already done such great work in this department. You're starting to see great results. You can only make things better by learning to speak up more and push for the things that you need. So my take?
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Treat this challenging company as a gym for your communication skills. Keep building those muscles. Look for the places where you need to seek out work or information. Whether that's fair or unfair, just put that aside. Think of it as an opportunity, maybe even a gift. I promise you cannot go wrong if you think of things that way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
and it'll also help with the resentment and pettiness that you feel. Right now, it sounds like it feels like this poor communication thing is happening to you, making your job worse, but if you shift your mindset a little, you can think of it as happening for you and forcing you to navigate your job in a new way. I'd be curious to know what changes if you do that.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
If you find more progress, you'll feel empowered, you'll feel energized, you might even feel happy to stay. If you don't, you'll know that you did everything you could. You can take these new communication skills into your job search, your relationship building, whatever job you land next when the time is right.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And I just see these two dudes, they're just dead. They're dying, and they're bleeding out, and there's nothing anyone can do. It's this massive, massive trauma. So intense for everybody.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Yeah, like if you guys aren't going to care about me enough to check on me and give me work, I'm not even going to try. Exactly. It actually, this is funny, it reminds me of this woman that I went to law school with. We all started working at these big law firms, right?
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
There's behemoth companies, hundreds or even thousands of people, and they weren't giving her the kind of work that she wanted to get. So she just sat around reading Agatha Christie novels all day for months. I'm talking about the better part of a year. Wow. I remember talking with her over drinks and it was like, wait, so you've been reading murder mystery novels for like eight months.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And then the police came overnight at some point and not even, they literally just drew chalk around the bodies like they would in a movie from 1945 or whatever. Yeah. And then they put like little flags of where stuff was, which is funny. Like, what are you flagging? There's no shell casings, nothing. And they put like a crappy barrier of tape, but they left all the blood, everything.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And she's like, I don't care. And how are you still working there? And the answer is nobody's, they're paying so little attention that when she's like, I can't do this right now because it's the wrong kind of work. They're just like, oh, okay. We assume you're busy billing hours and they're just not checking. Incredible.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I could see that, although given how attuned these bosses seem to be to their employees, I'm not sure they're going to get that memo.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Yeah, to serving to your coffee, smoothie, even water. It doesn't taste like anything, so it just blends right in.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Wow, yeah, I can totally see that. The things that annoy us, the things that hurt us, they almost always reveal parts of ourselves that we need to work on, right? Because this workplace, it is obviously dysfunctional. She is being poorly managed. She is being neglected. But one employee could experience that and go, huh, annoying. Guess I'm gonna have to walk into so-and-so's office and say,
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Hey, what should I be doing? Give me work, give me feedback, tell me where I'm supposed to be. Or, wow, nobody's giving me work. I guess I better figure this out on my own, make some calls, create my own projects. And another employee might go, wow, no one's on top of me. I guess I'm going to sit here and do nothing and feel ignored and anxious or read Agatha Christie novels all day.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And the difference between those responses probably points to some really important work that you can do. My final thought for you is, while you work on this communication stuff, I would definitely be reaching out to people in your field. I would absolutely be seeking out the experience you need to be a desirable candidate. Because like I said, all of this is so much worse because you feel stuck.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
The economy is the economy. The job market is the job market. You can't change that stuff. But you can build your relationships with people. You can look for the projects or the trainings or the certs that are going to build your resume.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And I wonder if settling for this job you don't love or feeling like you're just kind of stuck, if that might be another form of that protest that Gabe was talking about, something to consider. And if you decide to leave, it might take some time to land another job, and that is okay. But that doesn't mean you can't start working towards that now.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Working toward it now is how you are going to land that job. And if your communication and anxiety stuff is holding you back from doing that foundational work, that is one more great reason to lean into it. I love your curiosity. I love your willingness to be helped. You're doing great. Keep going. We're rooting for you and you got this. All right, now time for the recommendation of the week.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And I was like, okay, that was insane. Like double murder on Bocas del Toro is crazy because I was right there. And you think, oh, that was kind of a small event. And then you're like, well, there's two dead bodies. It wasn't that small. And then you see it in the national news. You're like, oh, I saw this whole thing happen.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
You're a few months behind? I'm five years behind on Netflix. Squid Game? What's that? I don't even know. I haven't seen a single episode.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
It's gross. Yeah. Episode 545 might be an interesting companion to this docuseries. Also, folks, if you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, that's over there on Reddit. Just search for Jordan Harbinger and you'll see my profile. But, you know, skip to the subreddit and interact with us there. All right.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Next up.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I will say not really, because here's the thing. Maybe if you see massive combat trauma, like you see someone's head explode because they got shot with a rifle, maybe I would have some sort of weird PTSD from that. But when you see people get stabbed, it kind of looks like somebody getting punched in the stomach sort of slowly, and then they just fall down. And you're like, oh.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
This is such a sad story. Really tough stuff. I'm sorry that your parents are treating each other in this way. I'm sorry they're relating to you in this way. Creating what sounds like a tense home for you and your siblings. It's really sad that parents do this. And I'm sure there are bright spots too. But I get why it's been hard for you. And I get why it's bringing up these big questions.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I actually love that it's bringing up these questions. So I think there are two ways to respond to the parents you come from. One way is to look at their behavior, their patterns, their values, and go, ugh, this is sad, this doesn't sit well with me, but this is just the way it is. I guess I'm stuck with the patterns that they helped create, like this pattern of pushing people away.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
The other way to respond to your parents is, I really don't like a lot of what I see in my house. I can see how this stuff has made me the kind of person I am today, and I want to do things differently. I want to treat people differently. I want to have more meaningful relationships.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I want to be the best version of myself according to the values and experiences that I find important, which is precisely what you're doing just by asking these questions, which is terrific. So in a way, what's happening at home, it's really tragic and frustrating. In another way, though, your parents are giving you a very clear model to avoid.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
They're showing you what happens when you don't treat people well, when you don't really listen to what your children are asking of you, when you don't show up for the people you love. So one great way to chart a different path, to learn the right principles, as you put it, is to basically do the opposite of what your parents do in these departments. Treat people kindly, respectfully.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Resist the impulse to diminish or shame people. Don't cheat on your partners. Don't try to one-up people or play power games with them. Show up for your friends and family, whether it's supporting them at events or helping them through a tough time or lending a generous ear, whatever that looks like. And look, you don't need to be perfect at all these things.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
They might feel a little awkward, a little scary, kind of vulnerable, but that's okay. In fact, that is good. Those feelings are signs that you're relating to people in a very different way from your parents and you're having a totally new experience of the world. And while you do that, I also wouldn't judge the parts of yourself that might look a little like your parents sometimes.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
For example, sometimes you might catch yourself mentally cutting someone down or being a little cold with somebody who's being nice to you. or worrying about where you fall in the pecking order of your office or your friend group, just to name a few examples of tendencies that you might have inherited from your parents and also from the culture at large.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And if those things come up, I wouldn't do to yourself what you say your mom does to people, which is shame yourself. Like, God, I'm so petty. I'm so judgy. I'm failing to live up to my ideals. I guess I really am just like them. There's no need for that. I would just notice those thoughts, notice those tendencies when they pop up and go, huh, interesting. All right, there's mom, there's dad.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
That's the thing I've seen them do 100 times. There's that old me who defaults to keeping people at arm's length, whatever it is. And then you just have to meet those parts of yourself with a little bit of curiosity and compassion. Ask yourself why they're there, what they might be trying to do for you, whether they fit with your new goals and values.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
That'll get you a lot further than beating yourself up and condemning them, which is another pattern that you might be in the process of rewriting.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Or I'm wired like a psychopath and that stuff just doesn't affect me.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Exactly. If you want to lead with kindness, be kind. If you want to have close relationships, be vulnerable. Let people be vulnerable with you. If you want to have loyal friends, be loyal. Do what you say you will. Show up when it counts. It's not all that complicated, but it does require work and some courage and vulnerability and meeting people. and meeting yourself in a new way.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Yeah, because I'm just kind of like, okay, I mean, that was a bummer for those guys. I didn't know them. I wanted to try to help them. There was nothing I could do. I mean, the one guy was barely moving. The other guy wasn't moving. They had already bled out by the time I got back down there to do anything. I wasn't going to intervene when they were fighting. That's for damn sure. Sure.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Exactly. Your feelings will settle. Your relationship with your parents will land where it needs to land. There's productive thinking about the future. And then there's just fantasy and speculation, which usually isn't very helpful. Again, I'm so sorry that you're struggling with your parents these days. I'm sorry for them that they feel the need to conduct themselves that way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I'm sure they're doing their best with the resources and understanding they have. It sucks. But like I said, it's also showing you the path not to take. And from that perspective, coming from this kind of home is also a strange gift. If you know what to do with it, which you clearly do, sending you a big hug, you got this.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Go back and check out Scott Galloway and our Skeptical Sunday on Fluoride in the Water if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. I want to teach you how to build the same thing in a free course. It's at 6minutenetworking.com, free on the Thinkific platform.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
The drills take a few minutes a day. It's not something that's going to take a whole bunch of time. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. It's not schmoozy. It's not gross. It's really super useful stuff. Again, over at 6minutenetworking.com. Show notes, transcripts on the website, advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So I don't know. I don't know if something is wrong with me or if that is just so surreal that your brain is like, well, that didn't look like what I thought a murder would look like, so I'm fine. I don't know. Bit of both, I think. Bit of both. Yep. Bit of both. Actually, if anybody out there has seen something crazy like this and it affected them way more or didn't affect them at all,
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
All those good deals are over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also add me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.
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Our advice and opinions are our own. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, however. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. Here's a sample of my interview with an emerging infectious disease expert that's taking a proactive approach to identify, prepare for, and stop viral threats before they become pandemics. Here's a quick look inside.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
For more, including why a future influenza epidemic is not a matter of if but when, and why vaccine hesitancy is one of the top 10 health threats in the entire world, check out episode 320 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Dennis Carroll.
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1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
I'm curious about your perspective, because now I'm kind of like, should I have been more affected by this? Because I was 22. It's not like I was grisly 44-year-old Jordan who's seen a bunch of stuff. I was 22 years old, and I was still just like, man, that was crazy. I didn't lose any sleep over that, really, I swear, which is maybe now more disturbing than I realized.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Anyways, all right, we got some fun ones. We got some doozies. What is the first thing out of the mailbag?
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the can of compressed air, clearing out the crusty detritus from the cracks in this keyboard of life advice, Gabriel Mizrahi. Hitting those K's hard at the top. That's right.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Wow, that's an intense letter. Gabe, that had to be hard to read, I think.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So yeah, it's just, it's like not cringe, but it's kind of like, oh gosh, I don't know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Yeah. A hundred percent. It's a hard subject to talk about even when you're a parent and you're dealing with it. So yeah, I just appreciate you sharing all this with us. As a dad, this is also really important for me to understand because child sexuality is such a complex... By the way, two words that I was not expecting to put together ever. It's such a complicated topic.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And it can be hard to know what's normal, what's not normal, what deserves to be addressed, what to let go. So I appreciate the chance to learn alongside you here. We wanted to consult with an expert about all this. So we reached out to Brad Watts, licensed professional counselor. Brad specializes in working with families where sibling sexual abuse has occurred.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
He's also the author of the book, Sibling Sexual Abuse, A Guide for Confronting America's Silent Epidemic. So really an ideal expert when it comes to this sort of stuff. And the first thing Brad said was that he was impressed with how you've handled a very difficult situation.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
He was also impressed by how directly you confronted such an uncomfortable issue, how you used the incident to continue to teach your kids about appropriate boundaries, keeping open lines of communication. And I second that. This is, as I've mentioned right at the top, not easy to talk about, especially when it comes to your own kids.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Man, you know, I wish I had a soundbite of, remember that girl who was on My Strange Addiction and she used to inhale the air duster? Yeah.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So his take was, on the surface, when you look at the age of your children here, This behavior could fall within the range of normal sexual curiosity and exploratory behavior. But there are some aspects to your story that were concerning to him.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
And the reason, Brad explained, is that in his experience, when clinicians see sexual curiosity between siblings, they're typically around the same age, which is what's going on here, There's the fact that your daughter might have been moaning when this happened.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
There's the fact that your daughter was clearly pushing for this, that she was specific with what she wanted, which seems to be sexual gratification, and your son was clearly uncomfortable with it but didn't stop. And then there's the fact that your daughter took it a step further when she actually threatened to get her brother in trouble if he didn't continue.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
To quote Brad here, there are at least three factors that take this well beyond typical childhood sexual curiosity. And they did make Brad wonder. Wonder, I want to be clear, not suspect, Whether your daughter has been abused or exposed to pornography or something like that and might be engaging in what he called sexually reactive behaviors.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Because given what you shared, Brad did wonder whether someone said similar things to her or showed her certain things or she saw something and that's caused her to now repeat the same behavior with her brother. Who knows? Maybe another kid at preschool or daycare showed her some stuff. I don't know.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
she's like i'm walking on sunshine what makes you think of that because she was in that can of compressed air she used to inhale all that duster oh was it duster or was it the um whipped cream from the supermarket no it was like keyboard duster oh yeah and she would just inhale it and like her mom i think filmed her to like show her what she looked like when she was high it was really tragic actually though she made a full recovery and is like happily married now from what i understand so so we can laugh about this unexpectedly happy ending to that story yeah
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Brad actually said that he's seen too many of those situations because I know like you're thinking like, where would they have gotten this little kids, man? They get an iPod touch and it's off to the races, especially if they have older siblings.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Now, I'm heartened to hear that when you ask them if they had ever seen anything like this happen or if it ever happened with anyone else, they both said no. But you also can't really fully confirm that right now. And maybe your kids sensed that it was important to say no, so it's still a question mark. Because again, in Brad's view, the extent of the behavior is kind of not normal for this age.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So yes, this is something that could potentially have an impact on your son's mental health down the line. But Brad also said, we just don't know. It's impossible to say right now. And yes, Brad believed this could enhance your kid's sexual curiosity going forward, but again, he would need more information to really know what's going on.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
He'd also be interested to know more about your other kids, the older two, their ages, the family dynamics there, if they've had any influence on your daughter, and of course, if anyone else has had contact with her. Again, Brad's just asking the questions that he's been trained to ask. He's not trying to speculate too much or plant any difficult ideas in your head.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
It's very possible that nothing happened here. Just something he'd invite you to reflect on as a parent who clearly cares about her children. In Brad's view, this is absolutely worth investigating further and continuing to monitor. The signs you want to look for are changes in behavior, any sexualized behaviors, nightmares, stuff like that.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So Brad's main recommendation was be proactive with your kids. get him into therapy. He feels it would be super helpful and important for your son to have that support, learn more about appropriate boundaries, build some skills in communicating those boundaries at home, and he said that your daughter could greatly benefit from therapy too.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Brad would advise looking for a child therapist, somebody with experience in trauma and sexual trauma would be a plus. Andy said you might want to look into play therapy specifically. Brad said that expressive therapies can really help children express and unlock feelings.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So play therapy, sand tray therapy, art therapy, drama therapy, these modalities work best with small children and they can be a way to surface any difficult experiences that they might have been through. That could also help her establish appropriate sexual boundaries as well. It could also help shed some light on whether she has in fact been abused or sexualized in any way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Again, he would be proactive and get both of them in therapy. Super important. Brad's final thought for you, every child is different. Every situation is different. None of this means that your son or daughter is different. destined to have serious mental health problems as a result.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
But the best thing you could do would be to get them lined up with therapy, be a safe space for them, work through this experience, and just make sure there isn't anything more serious that needs to be addressed. If you do that, you'll be doing everything in your power to make sure your kids are all right and they continue developing in a healthy way.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So big thank you to Brad Watts for his wisdom and insight here. Check out Brad's book, Sibling Sexual Abuse, A Guide for Confronting America's Silent Epidemic. We're going to link to that in the show notes along with his website and his Twitter. You know who won't lose his livelihood by making a wildly inappropriate ad pivot? This guy. We'll be right back.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are all searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Right. And in her letter, she said that all of this was possible because of a new law that went into effect in New York a few years ago, where if somebody can't afford cash bail, they often get released.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Yeah, yeah, she straightened her ish out. I mean, it's crazy to see people using stuff like inhalants. I don't know how we got on this topic so early in the show. It's going to get heavy later. That's not what the beginning is for.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
Yeah. But then this guy ended up burning her mom's house to the ground completely, trying to kill everyone.
The Jordan Harbinger Show
1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday
So I remember part of her letter was coming to terms with the fact that she was fairly liberal. But after going through this experience, seeing the actual consequences of liberal policies like bail reform, she was really frustrated. She talked to other liberal people and they'd get uncomfortable or they'd hem and haw trying to tell her that, well, your family is the exception to the rule.