Chris Grey

Now, if we're talking about immigration and immigrants...

the murderer of Henry Novak wasn't an immigrant.

He was the child of immigrants, I think, but he himself was born in Britain.

And that in itself then becomes a kind of an issue because there is increasingly a kind of a discourse on the right or on the far right, which is wanting to say,

well, even if you're born in Britain, it doesn't make you properly British, you know.

And so that's one thing.

And then on the other hand, if we look at the alleged, and we obviously have to say alleged, the alleged perpetrator of the Belfast stabbings, the person who's been charged with attempted murder, as I understand it, he was a refugee who sought asylum and

was, I think, given five years leave to remain.

The point I'm making here is that asylum seekers and immigrants and the children of immigrants, these are all different categories.

And by lumping them all together, that creates a certain sort of an impression.

And I think it's probably directly relevant to this issue about public perceptions of whether immigration is falling or not.

Because a lot of the public discourse about immigration, increased immigration, it talks as if it is all about people who are coming on small boats across the Channel.

Not that that applies in any of the... Now, as a matter of fact, that also is falling, by the way.

But because these things have all been conflated together, it has this effect.

But the other thing, which is more, I think you used the word poison or poisonous, and the thing which I think is more poisonous, in a way, is that what is being obviously by some people quite deliberately constructed is

is a narrative which focuses only on the murders or other violent crimes committed by everybody who in some sense can be connected with immigration, even though in all these different senses.

and ignoring all of the other crimes of a similar nature.

So, for example, about the time of the Belfast stabbings, within a few hours, I can't remember whether it was before or afterwards, there was an extremely awful stabbing incident in a school in Manchester.

And the alleged perpetrator of that has been arrested and charged.

Now, for a few hours on social media,