Claire Stephens

Yes, exactly.

And they're compulsively watchable and this whole thing of these women in these affluent cities living absurd lives, we've been following it for a long time now.

And as you say, Holly, what is so...

fascinating about this is that it started as being a housewife was the thing.

Like, it's the reason.

And I think all of this started with Desperate Housewives, and then it got turned into Real Housewives.

Yes, it's true.

It was kind of like Desperate Housewives meets The O.C.

That's kind of, I guess, how they pitched it.

I want the real estate, real estate porn.

And even I remember from when I was watching it, literally it would have been close to 20 years ago when I was watching some of the early seasons.

It would often be storylines about the husband being awful.

Lots of criminal stuff happening.

The husband was always doing something financially dodgy, which for some reason didn't affect the family's bottom line.

They were all fine.

But that was a common theme, that there was tension over people being treated badly.

Yeah, well, that's what's... Like, over those decades now, it's gone from being treated badly but staying with them because that's just your life to the stories now are really...

women on their own, divorcees, living their best lives.

Yeah, and because they seemed so enmeshed.

Like, I remember their lives seeming so, like, that he was involved in the business and all of that.