Glennon

Oh my God.

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I know it's real. Just to Symbiotica, thank you for making my wife so happy.

I guess we're just started. We've already started. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We're already here. We have just seen the face of our dearest Lily Collins. And you and I, Lily, have been waiting for this moment for a long while.

And PodSquad, you should know that every once in a while I get a text from Lily that says, I just listened to the last episode and here are my thoughts and feelings about it.

As if I'm in a courtroom and I'm presenting my case for having this feeling. I need to justify this feeling. A hundred percent.

I mean, Lily, I think this is the point. I'm trying to figure out what the point of having friends is. Yeah. No, I am. And I'm learning it now. I think I have always thought that friendship was a burden because what I did with people is I would get to anybody, partner, friend, whoever, and they would say, how are you?

And I would give them a report on maybe a problem that I might've had, how I worked it all out, how everything's fine right now. And here's my report. But what I never did was say anything that I was thinking or worried about right now. I'm struggling with, I'm scared.

Something that you're- Never. One of my kids said to me recently, do you know that when you're with people, you can talk about what you're actually thinking? And I was like, what? No, we're just reporting back and forth on all of the low so many things that we have fixed. So this idea that I could- Do what you're doing. Like say, I don't know what's going on right now. I just feel scared.

I think, Abby, the thing you just said reminds me of something that so-and-so used to say to me. And so it's kind of not about what you just said, but it kind of is about what you just said. You know, it's like that sitting in that trigger place is such a vulnerable place. Yeah.

And it didn't help that I was like, yes, you have done something wrong. Like I didn't figure out for a while that... I was also responsible for all the things coming up.

There are so many huge steps between being in a relationship like the one you're in and being able to X number of years later, say, I actually need some time to think through this. I mean, that's a revolution because when you think about the whole point of toxic relationships is that, first of all, we were saying earlier about like, it's important for people to be able to reflect back to you.

That's not normal. But in a way, the perniciousness of toxic relationships is like, that's the very point of them. Yes. In my experience, we're not normal. No one can understand us. You and I are the only one that can understand what's happening in this little ecosystem. And everyone else doesn't understand it. So they're going to tell us it's not normal. But it's...

So like everyone outside of the relationship is a threat to your relationship. And then in your relationship, the other person is a threat to you. But in this like really weird Stockholm syndrome where you're trying to make it make sense. So, and you lose your personhood, right? There's the idea. Yeah, completely. Your identity is completely rocked. Exactly.

And then 10 years later, you would have enough personhood to say, I need to take some time because there would be no time to take. There would be no person to go back to, to confer with and make sense of it. If you're in your old way of thinking, because there was no separate person. There was only you in how you related to that person because you dissolve in them.

Well, Lily Collins. Isn't she the sweetest? Yeah. And she's also really smart and deep and just hold on. You'll see. Lily Collins is a Golden Globe nominated actress for author of the international bestselling book, Unfiltered, No Shame, No Regrets, Just Me, and a philanthropist. Collins can currently be seen in the Netflix series, Emily in Paris, just a delightful romp. A delightful wrong.

And you also have to fight against what you have come to believe, which is anything that you think independent of me is stupid and is unreliable. Yeah. doesn't make any sense. So when you go out and try to figure out what you are, you're like, I think I like this, but I'm stupid. Yeah.

Does it feel big? Like you, you talk about in your toxic relationship that you felt very small and then even, you know, the pod squad can't see you. But when you're talking about your relationship right now with Charlie, your body gets, bigger. You're waving your arms. You're talking about expanding and it's your body's getting bigger as you're talking about it. Does it feel expansive?

I'm trying to figure out how did you end up from the small place to the big place? How did you get out of that bad one? Because we always say like first the pain, then the waiting, then the rising. So like how did you get out of that relationship where you were feeling so small in the smallness?

I've never said those words before in my life, but it really is. For which she received her second Golden Globe nomination. Lily, amazing. Lily launched case study films alongside her husband, Charlie McDowell. Lily's philanthropic endeavors extend to participating in various We Day events and the Geo campaign.

Of course.

Born in West Sussex, England, Collins moved to the United States at age six and currently resides in Los Angeles.

I don't know what you're saying.

Oh my God, Lily. So you all know I've been using Boca for a while now and I'm into it. Okay. This is like the new toothpaste with lots of different flavors and it's kind of making my mornings and evenings a little bit more delightful. Boca is on a mission to inspire more mindful oral care. Their toothpaste is free from fluoride, parabens, SLS, and artificial additives. It's powered by nature.

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Lily, this is my sister, Amanda.

Alma connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience. You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you. whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else. And what stands out to me about Alma is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through Alma say their therapist made them feel seen and heard.

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That's helloalma.com slash hard things. So when did you meet Charlie? And when you met him, did you immediately recognize him as freedom or was he scary as shit to you?

Or both, because we have talked a lot about how when you're used to a certain thing and you're comfortable with discomfort, when you meet someone who represents freedom or peace or joy, you can be actually suspicious.

Oh, listen, this one. oh, you're good. You're fine. Just relax. I'm like, I don't trust your judgment. I don't know if we can trust you, you know? So tell me about meeting Charlie and how that all went down.

We had the same reaction to you because of knowing about your journey. And it's something that hit me particularly intimately because it's something that I haven't talked a lot about in my life, but this idea of when we're really young, having toxic relationships that we only, at least for me, begin to unearth and really see in an objective way.

Oh, because you were wondering if he was going to belittle that.

Held and free. This is the first time. Held and free. That's what I. Yes. It's like I always thought. You either are held. So you're like safe. Or. But you're not. You don't have any freedom. right? Or you're just out on your own, but you don't have any heldness. So to find a thing where you are both absolutely held and who you are and absolutely free to expand is a miracle.

But it's not that we're crazy. It's because we've been in places where people did say one thing and mean another thing. Exactly. And that is part of being in an abusive relationship is like, you always feel a little bit crazy because they're saying one thing, but the energy underneath it is completely different.

So then when you get into healthy relationship, I mean, I just admitted to Abby that when she like looks at me in, a moment and out of the blue says, you look beautiful or you're beautiful. My thought is she's just looked at me, thinks I look terrible and is overcompensating for that feeling and thought by telling me that I look beautiful. Like it is some crazy ass shit, right?

And I didn't admit that to her for five years. I just told her that like three months ago. But that doesn't come from nowhere.

The older we get and your journey through that and being so brave and talking about it. I think it's helpful for so many, including me. And then your path to now where you just got married and every relationship has its thing. So we're not going to idealize anything, but the path from an unhealthy relationship to a healthy one is a big journey and it's not a linear path.

So what's your conflict now? What does conflict look like with you and Charlie now?

I was just going to use one of my favorite terms, which is nonlinear.

Yeah. And Lily, you're talking a lot about bigness and littleness. Yeah. Even your early, your early dreams of like this big thing chasing this little thing, and then it's trying to swallow it or somebody's trying to eat you or you're, you're Toxic X calling you little Lily.

You talk about being in an industry where you're supposed to shine and stand out, but where women are also supposed to stay tiny and small at the same time. That's confusing. So how, because we've talked about eating things, eating disorders, and it drives me nuts when people talk about eating disorders as just about body image. Like it's all about, oh, I'm just trying to be a certain shape.

It's patronizing and it's not about that. It's about trying to be safe. It's about deciding that at an early age, not wrongfully, but rightfully so, that it is dangerous as shit to live on the planet in a body, a woman's body. And so trying to mitigate that threat by becoming as small as humanly possible. How is your relationship with bigness and smallness and food going right now?

A romp of a delight.

Lily, I am so great. This interview, we have to stop now, which is weird because it just started two minutes ago. I know. So sad. I didn't know where this was going to go. I wanted to just kind of talk and feel the difference between unhealthy and healthy and healthy.

bad and good in terms of relationships and I just keep coming back to when you're in the wrong place you feel small everything feels small and when you get freer with whether it's with yourself or with someone else everything just feels bigger and yeah and having that sense of both held and free in our relationships with ourselves and each other is heaven I think. And I love you, Lily Collins.

I just have to tell you something funny before we stop. We've been talking about you and reading everything and watching everything and listening to everything because we've become so obsessed and deeply in love with the people that we interview. Last night, we've been talking about you for a solid week. Last night, my sister texted me and goes, you are not going to believe this shit.

Lily Collins is Phil Collins' daughter. I said, yeah, I know that. Some people know that.

It's like the most unremarkable part about her. She thought she was going to like- Nothing against Phil. Yeah. She thought she was going to break that news. Just FYI, in case it comes up. And we can do hard things.

I know you don't know this, but- We have broken it here.

So he could have been a big Pac-Man swallowing you up, but you didn't let it. You got bigger and bigger and now you are big Lily and we love you, Lily. And thanks for doing such hard things. And for, because I just think that you really just, just being you and showing up and saying what you did today is going to help a whole hell of a lot of people.

Thank you for all of your work. And Emily and Paris just

Yay. A delightful romp.

Go watch the romp.

I know. For all of us depressive babes, just freaking go watch Emily in Paris. It's not depressing. All right? It'll get us out of that. It's beautiful. All right, PodSquad. We will see you back here next time. Love. Mwah. Mwah. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

It's so confusing. And I think the age thing is so interesting, Lily. Of course, we know interpersonal violence in relationship happens across every race, across every age, all of it. But we don't, I think we don't tend to talk about it when it happens in younger relationships, because it's like, that's supposed to be like laughed off. That isn't as formative as it is.

It's only a legitimate relationship if you're an adult. But when we think about it, young women, 18 to 24 are actually at the highest rates of intimate personal violence of any group. And for high school students, one in three of them experience physical or sexual violence. And I think it's so important to bring this conversation to those younger years. That's when I experienced it.

I don't know when you did, but I think I was like 14 to 17 when I was in that. And that can seem illegitimate, but it was very big in setting up the foundation for who I chose next and next and next. Yeah, of course it is. I don't know if you talk about your age, but was, were you in that younger group? I was early twenties. Early twenties. So it's still formative.

Thank you for saying that.

That's so honest and so real.

Sometimes when people are like, do you have a healthy relationship with yourself? I'm like, well, I feel like from 10 a.m. to 10.20, I was having a really healthy relationship with myself. You know, but like if you ask me about 1045 to 1115, it's not.

But Lily, I'm so glad you brought up that peer group because what I have noticed about relationships that are toxic, I also want for the four of us to talk about what that means. What does it mean to be in a bad relationship, a toxic relationship, an abusive relationship? I can find myself in them now. I just had an interesting relationship in work that was totally unhealthy.

Now, here's what happened. I found myself isolated with this person. And we created this really little toxic situation because there was just the two of us. And it's this weird thing that happens when it's just the two people and you have decided for some reason that you're not going to discuss it in the outer world.

I don't think it's something that just happens to people who are weak or who are this or that. It can happen to any of us at any time and it always gets bigger and more dangerous in isolation, which is why... that high school group or having some of the equivalent of it now. Because the way I got out of it was I described it to two friends.

And two of my friends were like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah. That's not normal. Yeah. And then I thought, oh, had I been talking about this with a larger group? It's like the larger accountability groups remind you of what's normal and what's not when you forget. Yes.

What were you doing for those two years?

Like, you want that.

Neither does Abby. Me neither. I do. Finding a great mentor who can really help me level up, it's not easy. But my dream mentor, Jodi Foster, she's our friend. So when I heard that she had a class on Masterclass, I was so excited to learn from her. Masterclass is the ultimate way to learn from the best to become your best.

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I know we joke about sexuality, Tig and Abby sexuality, but the truth is, is I think it's really awesome, Tig, that you can hold the space for Stephanie to be able to do that. Not many partners are confident enough in the love and the marriage to be able to do that.

I mean, that's not 100% true. A little bit. Listen, you sat down at a table one day and you said, we are not standing up from this table until we figure out what I am. Because people kept asking me. All right, let's figure it out. I mean, I know we're married, so. It's hard to figure out after you're married. It really is.

Yeah.

That's right. That's right. I think we're at an inflection point, too, in the way that women work, women in business. I have spent my whole fucking life just being like, yes, sure, I'll do that.

Thank you so much. And it's like, you know. It's half of what I probably could be earning. And recently, I mean, it took this one because she's just stronger than me in terms of holding her boundary, her line for what she's worth. Yeah, of course. I mean, look at her. She towers over me.

Yeah, I think a lot of us are in a Tawanda right now.

Yeah. It's an invitation to all the other.

Yes.

Yeah. That's going to be the title of this double date.

Thanks, Stephanie. Sorry. So the question is, what do I not want?

choose to live a life without chaos. And that's good. It's difficult with three children, truly, because a lot of that can feel chaotic and moments, but I don't seek chaos. I was a seeker of chaos for many years of my life. Yeah. And peace is kind of what I'm after. So if I were to say what I don't want, it would be chaos.

And there's a few things that I have to do every single day to achieve, like to have a knowing of that groundingness. Like it's like working out. It's drinking coffee in the morning. Yeah. It's, you know, making sure I'm staying connected with my wife. Like those kind of three elements, like seriously, coffee is that important to me? It rises to that top.

It's implied. There is just no communication for the first 20 minutes of wakeness. No, that's right. We don't talk to each other.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's what you do. You've never, you've never done that. Yeah. You have our bios, right?

Yeah.

What are the ones you do every time? We've got like three in the bank that we just keep coming back to.

That issue's still there. Yeah, the resolution wasn't there.

That's so interesting to me because I... You're not abandoning yourself. I'm always looking for you to be sorry.

Yeah, this is a 1% of our relationship.

Did you do Don't Ask Tig, too? She was setting up the... I was helping the tech check. Oh, right, right, right, right, right. You don't remember anything that I do for you. Well, I remember Tig. This is what long-term marriage is like.

$31. That's what's so cool about it.

Thank you so much for being here in the world. For everything. But seriously, let's meet in person one day.

Yes.

Okay. Oh, this is interesting.

Got it. Okay. And you played basketball.

I died laughing because I was like, Tig Notaro's going to watch her friend's basketball game.

I know, but you got it now because I kind of Glennon's like, I wish that I knew earlier. And I'm like, oh, I know that bothers you when I say that. Because I'm like, well, you can't go back in time. Number one. Number two, like that just means you'd be sleeping with so many more women. Right. I'm not into that. Okay.

Well, you were also married with three children.

I was also married with three children. Slightly different.

Yeah. Going to the Andrea thing, it's like they said, Megan said that Megan had spent so much time hating her body and worrying about the shape of her body and then One day Andrea said, because Andrea had been diagnosed with cancer and Andrea said, I just so badly want to have a body. And it's like on our birthdays, we're like, I want this different kind of life. I want a different life.

I want it to be different. And instead of being like, I'm just so grateful to have a life. Yeah. Yeah. And I like what you said about the blessing versus luck thing. I just so reject every time someone says I'm so blessed because of this or that. I know everyone's saying it with good intentions, but it's confusing because it's like, oh, so then the other person's unblessed.

Like if you're blessed to have your health, then what is my neighbor doing? like God was less excited to bless them. I like, I'm grateful.

Well, let's look at the list that we were talking about of the things that make us miserable on our birthdays. Expectations, the opposite of that is gratitude for whatever's here. Comparison, the opposite of that is gratitude. Existential dread, fear of what will be. Opposite of that is gratitude for what is now.

So it looks like everything that makes us miserable on our birthday could be fixed, undone, if we focused completely on gratitude for whatever is.

Mm-hmm. Is it just because everyone's birthday is everyone else's just normal hard day of life? Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's hard to figure that system out. Like, we don't all get to stop on everyone else's day and tell our kids and our job and our family and our sickness and our whatever that this is Jodi's day. It's just a bad system.

Okay, well then. What you doing, babe? Why are you screaming like that?

You know, instead of everyone having an individual birthday, if we had like an international holiday, which was like gratitude of people you love day. And we all on that day agreed that we were going to stop and tell each other whatever. But this June 2nd being her birthday and being everyone else's June 2nd is a tricky situation.

Yeah. And maybe we don't get it. All year. Maybe most people feel unseen and unloved all year. And then on their birthday, they're like, at least this day, please.

And then you feel like people don't even get that right. I always think of that scene from The Bear where Jamie Lee Curtis is in the kitchen freaking out and she's like, I make things beautiful for everyone and no one makes things beautiful for me. And it was a wild scene. But I think about that all the time that that is a caregiver's internal mantra.

Do you guys have any good memories or stories about birthdays?

Oh, that's so good.

I just love the little things about birthdays. So in our family, we always start everyone's birthday with breakfast in bed. Even now, like if the kids are at our house... Craig comes over at like 6 a.m., all like bleary-eyed with his coffee. And we all hang out outside the hallway of whoever's birthday it is. And then we start singing and walk into the bedroom.

And, you know, when they were little, they'd wake up and their eyes would be all big. And they'd be so—because now they're teenagers. And they're like, ugh. But they would be so upset if we didn't do it.

And then we sing happy birthday. And then we have our annual family argument about the birthday song, because I insist that the birthday song is done wrong because it sounds like a dirge. It's like, it's a dirge, a funeral song. It's like,

Right. Which is better and sounds better and sounds like we're happy you were born and we're not sad you were born. And also it just takes too long the other way. So I have been on a long mission to change the birthday song. Tish last year or a couple of years ago said, mom, could you stop it? Just stop it. And I said, what? Why? I'm making it happy. And she said, do you think it's possible that

It's long because that person gets a moment. Like that person gets to stand there while everyone is looking at them and they get to take it in that it's a purposely beautifully long. And I was like, huh.

Why?

Not as an adult. I just remember always feeling like, I don't like this. And I don't know why or how. I just remember feeling like you have the birthday party and then your friends come over and then you're, you feel like, you know, they're guests. So your mom has to be nicer to them. Has to be like, pay attention to them. And there's all people all around. And then you can't win your own game.

Well, it is here and there is where it is. And everywhere. What I do, because I am not a very good person, is that I blatantly withhold my God bless you's when the sneezes are too loud. Are you kidding me? Nope. I can't believe you haven't noticed. I will not say God bless you to a loud sneezer. I hope that the ancient teachings are right and that's where the devil gets right in your body.

Yeah. You have to be all polite. I just don't, I would rather not have everyone else to deal with, you know?

It just feels like a lot.

Whoa.

I think we know that in our bones. And that is why birthdays take us close to the ache. Yes, that's what I think it is. Birthdays take us close to whatever it is that the swirly purple and black, sequency, swirly cliff we're right next to. We're right next to that thing. And the ache, it's life and death and God and spirit. And we're all going to die.

And we're all going to be taken from each other. And we just have this one brief moment of life. And on our birthday, we are there. with it. And we want people around us to block us from the ache, to keep us in this dimension. And when we're alone, we feel everything because we are right next to the ache, the spirit, what they thought originally. alone.

And that is why birthdays are fucking a lot.

So because the Christians were like, turns out we're rotten.

Every party needs a pooper. That's why we invited the Christians. Party poopers. Party poopers.

And that's what I do. I do not bless the devil out of your body. If you're going to be so loud as to instill the fear of God in me, then I'm going to hope the devil sneaks right in during that sneeze.

Yeah. And like a commodity, are we spending it right or not? It's something that belongs to us that we make decisions about as opposed to it's something that we belong to.

Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder, is there a way to approach our own birthdays with the limited time we have left on this earth in a way that makes them more satisfying? In a way that avoids expectations, comparison, making it a referendum on our life. We had three friends over last night, actually, to celebrate one of their birthdays. And it was just a very simple, lovely talking on the couch dinner.

And then at the end, we all sat down and I had a little notebook and we talked about Deb's just kind of like intentions and hopes and dreams for the next year. together. And we wrote them all down. And it was really beautiful because as her friend, now I know what she is dreaming of for the next year. I know so much of what's in her heart and what she values and wants. And so now I feel like

Okay, so... So if you're having a bad day, karma is my boyfriend. Okay. Feeling a little possessed.

It's not just about next year, finding out if it all came true. It's about knowing what to check in with her about, knowing what's real for her.

Yeah. And it's not just like a secret wish. I think it's so weird. The birthday wish that we have to keep secret. And then some of us are so superstitious that I'll speak for myself. Every time I'm like making a secret birthday wish and my family's all around me, I want to wish for something for myself. But then I'm like, Oh God, I got to wish everybody stays happy and healthy again.

Cause if I don't, I'm a bad mom. So then I have to spend that on my wish every year. And I, I kind of squander your wish on the health and happiness of your family. Exactly. I just think caregivers should get two wishes. But what do you think are some ideas to like go into our own birthdays without falling into the pitfalls of what makes us sad on our birthdays?

Thank you. Thank you.

That's because I did not bless you.

Okay, what's a yawn, ha, ha?

No, karma is a cat on my lap.

We are so mad at each other. Everyone in our house is mad at each other.

Thank you. Thank you.

So apropos of nothing, what we have decided to come together today and discuss is... Something that the pod squad has been calling in and requesting as a topic for a long time. And it is because it is something that happens to all of us every single year. And it is something that causes all kinds of complicated feelings inside of us if we The email's, stop yawning. Am I keeping you awake?

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm trying to record a podcast.

So what we're talking about is... birthdays and all of the complicated feelings that birthdays bring up in us each year. We have figured it out. We have figured out exactly why birthdays are so complicated and difficult for a lot of us. And I believe that by the end of this podcast, you will have some ideas about how to make your birthday less sucky.

it out? Okay, I'm so excited that this is recorded. I just feel like I have been suffering for so long with Abby's need to make every bodily function terrifying. Like the sneeze would register on the Richter scale with how loud it is. And even the yawn, which is like a quiet thing. And then there's like an animal scream after.

Yeah. I think we're going to fix birthdays today. What do you all think? Or are you too bored to answer?

It's your birthday. No, you're not going to sing 50 Cent on our podcast.

Yeah. Get busy. Okay. No, that's not even in the song. Get busy.

We're going to party like it's your birthday. We're going to drink Bacardi like it's your birthday. We don't give a fuck because it's your birthday. Like that. All right. I think it's interesting that one of the reasons why I started my friendship journey in the last season where I'm trying to gather and invest in and work on my friendship life is Is because it was kind of catalyzed by a birthday.

Catalyzed is a word?

Okay. One of my birthdays a couple years ago, I woke up March 20th is my birthday. And I had a lot of birthday messages from pod squatters and people on the interwebs. But the whole day from beginning to end, I got four texts from people outside of my family. Four people, four real life people remembered it was my birthday and reached out to say happy birthday.

And I was like, oh, that feels like really bad. And I sat with it for a while. And then I realized that, in fact, karma is my boyfriend. And if you never write back or call anyone or invest in other people, then they will not invest in you. It was a birthday. Because birthdays feel like some kind of big day where the whole life of you is tested and like spotlit and put into contrast.

It's like a referendum on your life. That's how a birthday can feel. That's one reason why birthdays are hard. What do you think, Sissy?

That's it. That's right.

And it's like a forced stillness. It's like for the rest of the days, we can busy up and like conjure up our own worthiness. We can make it so we can call the people. We can show up. We can do the email. We can like busy ourselves up and reach outward to prove to ourselves that we are important and loved and whatever.

But on our birthday, it's like this different posture where we just have to sit there and wait if other people reach out to us. Like we can't put ourselves in their lives. We have to see if they care enough about us to leave their own lives and reach out to us sitting in our house.

Well, that's good. So who's loud? Who's the loud sneezer?

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. It's like all nostalgic. Yeah. Nostalgic can make us sick. Okay. So if you really think about how we've set up birthdays for ourselves in our culture, we have made a pile of things that drive us nuts, that actually make human beings miserable. So birthdays are based on number one, expectations.

We have this idea that's just hidden from everyone else of what we hope will happen or we think should happen or we expect should happen based on this or that or that.

Our secret expectations. Expectations are just, you know, as we all know, they're just resentments just waiting to happen, right? So expectations are a nightmare. That's what birthdays are based on. Number two, they're based on comparisons. The more I think about it, everything is comparison. Today- Is my birthday.

I am today comparing myself to everybody else who had a birthday this year, who posted on Instagram, who has 20 friends where I have two, who has this cake where I have this one. I'm comparing myself not only to other people, but myself last year. Like, did all the things happen this year that I thought would? I'm comparing myself to where I thought I would be at this age.

Like when I was young, I was 47. I had this, I had this, I had this, I had this.

Yeah. For some people it is. Yeah. So comparison, expectations, comparison, then existential dread.

I think a lot of people would say it's getting older that makes me upset every year. That's just existential dread. That is one thing that I actually don't have. Every time there's an anxiety or a worry or misery that I don't have, I just want to say it because it makes me so happy. Yeah, you're not weird about getting older. No. This is my theory.

I had a really rough go of it as a young person because of addiction and all the things, so My life keeps getting better the older I get. I just keep being happier because the beginning was rough for me. So I would never want to be younger. I wouldn't go back for all the money in the world. But you, sister, I think you do have, you told me that you have some worry each year about aging or

And before we do that, before we get to the why, in addition to all of these apparently indiscriminate firings that are changing lives, isn't there also a sort of ethos being injected into all of these departments where they are encouraging people to turn each other in And so distrust, kind of McCarthyism-esque. Is this what's happening?

Jessica and Amanda and I had a plan yesterday of what to talk about today. And then Jessica texted us this morning and said what we have to talk about today, what's happening right now. ist of maximum importance and we have to change course and talk about the breaking news.

So Jessica, what do you hear in that?

But it's a loyalty test. It's a smart way. That sounds silly, but it's actually not. It's saying, whose side are you on?

Jessica, du weißt, der alte Edmund Burke-Quote, die einzige Sache, die notwendig ist für den Triumph des Schicksals, ist, für gute Leute nichts zu tun. Wo ist der andere Seite? Wo sind unsere Steuern und Gegebenheiten? Wenn unser Zuhause überwacht wird, wo sind die Leute, die verantwortlich sind? Wo sind die Demokraten? Wo sind die Juden? Gibt es irgendeine Resistenz?

Can we get to the why of all of this? What is the most educated guess for why this is happening? Because it's not an accident. They're not just thoughtlessly breaking before they can fix. This is all purposeful. So why do you think that this is happening.

So, Jessica. Amanda, is there anything you want to say before we start?

Is that okay? Jessica, the worse the news gets, the more straight You'll see my hair because I like to wake up and control what I can control. Right? I completely get it.

Yeah, so if you were planning that and if you were a Peter Thiel or a Musk and you'd been planning this for a very long time and you'd find your candidate, right? Somebody who could put out as like a dummy leader like, you know, the evangelicals did with Reagan or however this plays out. And you could control him. You might pitch that to him over time. You might fund his campaign.

He might say the quiet part out loud every once in a while. Like, don't worry, you won't have to vote again. We're fixing this. Right? Does this all sound... Right.

And can you assume, Jessica, that we don't know what she was just saying?

No, no, no. That's great. I just want to make sure that we're explaining what actually is happening with Russia.

einen gewissen Niveau von Balance und Weltfrieden, so nahe wie wir es erreichen können, sie rutschen einfach hin und brechen all das auch.

And Musk often making what appeared to be Nazi salutes and then saying that wasn't real. Right? Right.

Untertitelung. Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020

Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020

Let's talk about little Minnie Musk.

Hast du nur gesagt, Elon Musks Sohn X? Ist sein Name X? Ja. Okay, geh' weiter, geh' weiter. Ja.

Was ist da passiert?

Wow.

But also it feels every parent, one theory. I know the moment when my children, when they were smaller, like I have a child who once turned to someone and said, oh, come on, that's bullshit. Okay. Okay. Okay. I don't know if that was as zenny as we hoped, but it was funny.

Okay, well, I just want to say that this is a really, really hard time. And in this hard time, I am so grateful for both of you, for your clarity, for your courage, for your insight, for your knowledge, for being willing to even do this. I just am feeling deeply grateful for both of you. Is there anything that either of you want to leave with our precious pod squad?

It's not calm like floating on a cloud somewhere away from reality. I think of our version of calm as what Abby used to call ice in the veins. So like during a huge game where the other team was just messing with them, trying to get them to foul so that they would Lose the game. The other side was screaming at them.

And then Abby said that somebody would always scream to each other, ice in the veins. Ice in the veins. It's that kind of calm. It's strategic, clear, unshakable. We're about to fight to win this game. Calm. Yes. Yes. Amen. Love you both. We can do hard things. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us.

If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey oder wo auch immer du Podcasts hörst.

Und dann klickst du auf das Plus-Signal in der linken rechten Seite oder klickst auf FOLLOW. Das ist das wichtigste für den Podcast. Während du da bist, wenn du uns eine 5-Star-Rating und Review geben und einen Episode mit einem Freund teilen würdest, wären wir sehr dankbar. Wir freuen uns sehr auf dich.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.

Hi, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we have a conversation, an episode of calm news, but I will tell you right off the bat that I'm not feeling super calm this morning. We have some really, really serious, important things to talk to you about today.

As you well know, our dear friend Jessica Yellen is here with us to talk us through what's going on right now in this moment in our country, which is very difficult. serious. We are going to get through this together. We are going to, as my sister told me this morning, we're going to not turn away from this, but we're also not going to leave you with it, with nothing to do.

So a bunch of 20-jährige Hacker haben jetzt gefordert und benutzen die Macht, wer auch immer sie wollen, um Informationen über individuelle Amerikaner oder Bereiche der Regierung zu erzeugen. Und hat es jemals einen Zeitpunkt in der Geschichte gegeben, als ein privater Bürger so viel Zugang oder Macht hat?

We are going to take in what's happening in the country. We are going to metabolize it, process it, and give us all something to do so we do not feel helpless because we are not helpless. And if we believe we are, then we are. If we believe we aren't, then we aren't. So we will give you something to do after you take in this news.

Oh mein Gott.

No, it's a totally different model. Do you get paid more? Like, do you actually, the women, right. So it doesn't translate to actual paycheck. Yeah, they don't even get paid really. It's like we get bonuses for winning. No, but I mean like in the WNBA.

Yeah. Sue is on below deck.

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Okay, so you DM'd Sue about social justice before the kneeling, before your kneeling. So would you say that, because- I secretly believe that the WNBA is in charge of the world. Yes. I really do.

Holy shit. So would you say that that influenced you? Oh, yeah. Good question. The WNBA? The WNBA influenced you and the way that you decided to take on the kneeling role. Do you think there's any way that that was influential to you?

Yeah. So amazing. And would Sue, that was mostly black women led, right? Is that the way that it, yeah.

2020. Yeah. She was already a senator. Yeah, but I remember seeing the Vote Warnock t-shirts. And I remember being like, who's that? Yeah. So how weird is that? That like, you know, a year later, we were all like, this was my idea. But that team was the first. And that was so brave and amazing. Like, wasn't that the owner of Loffler was the owner of the team? And these women all walked out.

with Boat Warnock t-shirts on, so badass.

And then you think about how much attention and credit women's soccer gets for things. Yes. It's so fascinating and... Well, Megan and Sue, why would you say that women's soccer tends to be more celebrated in this country than the WNBA is?

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, we are inviting you to a...

Yeah. My massive sports background. So you had all these meetings and run-ins. Sue, when did you know, oh shit, I'm in love with Megan?

I mean, obviously she liked Megan when she was so nerdy and was trying to like be cool at the- at the Olympic thing. Right. But like, when were you like, Oh, and by the way, I want everyone to know who's listening, that they just had like a little, which is what we always do.

So that's, like, the first... So she's never cared about being a host this much. And she does right now.

Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird.

Yeah. All right. Let's do this. Okay. Megan and Sue. Here we are. And I just want to explain to you what the hell we're doing here. Okay. Abby and I decided... A while back that we were going to try to have friends.

But you don't want to stop and say, actually, that was Megan.

No.

Like we were just going to actually talk to the people that we call our friends. Yeah. But we don't want to go anywhere or really do anything about it. So what we decided was that we were going to have double dates on the podcast. So then we made a list of all of the people that we wanted. to have a double date with. And it kept just saying Megan and Sue.

I mean, Megan, since you've known Abby for so long, I want you to know that I spent the first four years of our relationship trying to quiet her down. Like I thought maybe I could just, if we keep talking about it, I could just lower her volume. Like that's never going to fucking happen. No, I, my responsibility is just to go dead inside.

And like, that's my job as a lover. is to slowly die to that wish. And like for you, I'm never going to put things back in the right place.

Yeah, because what Megan's saying, if I say to you, I'm sorry, that implies that I'm going to do it differently. And I am never... Ever going to do it differently.

Not going to happen. No. And it doesn't go well, Megan. Although when I try, it doesn't go well.

Really? Do you? Do you think that? Do you think someone tell you that or you just? Is that your opinion? Who told you that? Because they lied. Yeah. Who told you that?

So interesting. I love what Sue said.

Yeah, it's awesome.

That's awesome.

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I know it's real. Just to Symbiotica, thank you for making my wife so happy.

We talk a lot on this podcast about boundaries. Have you all had to, during this weird time, established any challenging boundaries with each other or with anybody else in the world that you can think of? Like family of origin stuff, the world. You guys have to deal with the world often and its feelings.

Yeah. It's like because it gets very arbitrary. It's like the Goodwill hunting. It's like, do you want to get together and have some caramels? Yeah. It's like, what the hell else do you do?

That is such a huge situation. My sister and I. I mean, I can get on the phone with her and say, I don't like that person looked at me weird. In 20 minutes, we're both homicidal. We're both plotting the death of that person and how we can get away with it and remove the body.

But I will tell you that there's, I believe there's an appropriate level of whippedness that everyone needs to get to because I also don't like, I think our dynamic is I'm whipped. And then you try to unwhip me.

Yeah.

You know, when you're whipped up about something and somebody's like, well, I mean, let's look at it from their perspective. And you're like, okay, no.

There's like a happy medium. What's helpful.

I like being sad. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Cause I can like get to the thing and then get to the, what we're going to do and then be done because that's what my work requires of me. And you're like, Oh, but for the rest of the day, I'm like, but is the world ending?

Yeah.

okay i want to ask you guys some quick questions like just a little rapid fire type thing but it doesn't have to be rapid because i've never we'll do our best but sometimes i've never it's not i've never done a rapid thing in my damn life so i try to do rapid i'm like well i need to give context don't worry about your rapidity okay um which one of you is the more jealous one and do you ever get jealous

That's always a fun conversation. I've had it a few times. I can't ever speak to you again. Nor can I explain to you why. Why?

That's so interesting. That's amazing to me. So is the fact that I feel jealous of certain people, and I haven't been jealous for years, but that's also because we haven't seen any other human beings probably.

COVID has made me a more mature person. But is it because I feel actually threatened? That's so embarrassing. I don't know. I don't either. I'll think about it. Okay. What do you guys do for fun?

This is a theme for us. We try to figure out what is the thing that you do that isn't related to like your productivity or that you get nothing out of except for enjoyment.

Like activities? She wants me to play a fucking sport with her.

What are the questions? Cause I feel this way. I want you to understand that this is not a sporty spice thing. I think you're alluding to that because you just only called out Abby, but January is a, just a pit of existential dread all the time for them.

That's magical to me. So do you all like the same sorts of people? Like is making friends hard for you? Are most of your friends queer couples? Yeah. Do you ever have a couple where you're like, I don't like her, but the other one does? It feels like it's so easy for you the way you're talking about it. You have. I have. Yeah.

What's the most important thing to each of you and a friend and what's a deal breaker?

We just did this whole thing about friendship and that's the science of friendship is like it should be 100% or nothing. That we all have this idea that relationships should be suffering, but actually friendships are the ones things we get to choose, right? Like we don't get to choose our freaking family. Once we get married, we don't really get to choose our partner. That's like done deal.

Right. That's like.

But our friendships are the one thing that we can be like, no, 100 or zero. It's good. No friction.

And they're just better.

Thank God. Okay. We kept you for too long already. This is called We Can Do Hard Things. What's the hardest thing you're dealing with right now before we leave in your life? What's the hardest?

Is it like the Sunday scaries, but like times a million? Yeah. Is it like on Sunday when everything feels terrifying and you forgot how to be out in the world and do whatever it is you do and you don't think you'll ever figure it out again? Is it like that, but harder?

And that's the beauty of being a woman athlete. There's plenty of chances to make more when you stop.

That's how I feel all the time. I don't know if we're going to name this podcast. I hate everybody. It's like Selena's dad said, because both I love. Yeah, it's good. Well, maybe we'll title it. It's like Selena's dad said. I hate everybody. Yeah. But it's just constantly that. This is all such big stuff. And what you're talking about having evolved past...

an institution that you have to stay in. I have a friend who talks about a Zen koan, which is like, there's a goose that's growing inside of a glass bottle, right? How do you get the goose outside of the bottle without hurting the goose or shattering the bottle? And I see you, Megan, trying to do that.

So beautifully where you have this bottle that is so fucked up and so small, but is the only container for these younger women coming up. So, you know, you can't say burn it all down, even though that's what you do want to say, because then you have to come back 20 times and say, I didn't mean burn it down. I meant like put a fire on a little bit. Yeah.

Well, if we want to know how to do it, we can watch the WNBA. I mean, that is true. The t-shirt the goose has on in the glass bottle of the WNBA will lead the way. Right? We adore both of you. Megan, I've adored you forever, but Sue, I just knew you'd be as wonderful as you are. And thank you, Sue, for your intense gentleness.

I have noticed that every time you start to say something that is a sports metaphor, you start it with, in sports. And I know you're talking to me and trying to help me through. And I noticed that- I see you. And I thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, we love it.

It is.

Yeah. So good. It's a beautiful thing to come to the sports with beginners. Well, we're lucky.

Yeah. I'm excited for it, too. I'm excited to see what happens when they're out of the bottle. We love you. Go do all the things. Try to be quiet when each other is on Zoom meetings. Megan, stop being such a hypocrite. It's so true.

And to the rest of you. Aw, they're so cute. They are so cute. I'm so glad you have each other. All right, when things get hard this week, don't forget... We can do hard things. That's right. See you back next week. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

So we were just talking to a good friend, Sarah Paulson, and she was talking about how she's just gotten to this point in her life where she's finally figured out that she knows how to do what she does. Like it's not just one long fluke. It's not like she's tricking the world every time she shows up. She actually tells herself, wait, you know how to act. Like you can do this. It's not luck.

Do you guys feel like you can do sports yet? Or do you still feel like you're just tricking the world every time? And when you get a trophy or whatever you get, you're like, oh, thank God I tricked him again.

That's horseshit though. The second you figure out how to do it, it's like, that reminds me of, I think I'm in perimenopause right now. That reminds me of that. It's like, okay, I'm crushing it. I'm a badass. I am like, I don't give a shit what anyone thinks about me. I am out there doing my thing. And it's like, oh, but I'm going to have hot flashes every four minutes. Like,

That's how old I am. You couldn't pay me. You're such a slacker. I can't understand what you're saying right now because I haven't listened. I keep going back to the fact that Megan Rapinoe just called a bunch of people on the team the kids. I feel like a great grandmother right now. If Megan is referring to, wow, so you're like the old person now.

Just keep up. You guys should become, well, you already are, but if you're a writer, you don't have to give a shit about your body. I don't even have to like make it up the stairs.

I know it was destined because we have been so delighted all morning because we knew we were about to see your face and we haven't seen you for a while. I know. I miss both of you so much. First of all, I should tell everyone what's happening. There are a lot of people listening and they're like, this is a lovely conversation, but who's talking? What's happening? Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

You've talked about that in your career.

How do you do that? And then that's what you're doing.

And then that's why it's not working.

They're like, she's a marketer, not an engineer.

Yes. We have... over time noticed those that the pod squad here and we can do hard things has 40 million questions about being a woman in the workforce or really being any kind of marginalized human in the workforce. And I want to answer their questions, but I am not really in the workforce. I am mostly in the bathtub. Confirmed. Right. So we,

I love you so much. And it's amazing when you think about I don't know how to put this into words, you will, but like how the corporate world and the whole world uses words that cover the racism and the misogyny, uses words like professionalism.

When what it really means is whiteness.

So... Mm-hmm. well, we just want you to wear this. We just want you to talk like this. We just want you to, because it's professional. Yes. Without dissecting what they're actually saying by professional. White maleness, not just. Right.

Because that's what you're doing for the people that come behind you. Yes. That's the difference between freaking diversity. Because especially for a woman like you, when they hire you, they say, we want you for your perspective. We want you for your story. We want you for your whatever. Of course. And then the second you get there, that's not what they want you for. No.

They want you for their sheets that says, we have her.

Decided, Abby and I, that there really couldn't be any more qualified human being on the earth.

That's why it's not working. At the end of the day, Bose, is it that A lot of places want to say and get credit for wanting to change. But at the end of the day, that's the last thing that's wanted.

Ever. To discuss and guide the world, really, through the minefield of work and womanhood. And that human being is Bozema St. John, who also happens to be a dear friend of mine. of ours. Can you introduce? Yes.

Oh, an easy question. That's interesting. What's the hardest part of communicating with white women?

And how would that play out? Because again, we're talking about alignment. So when white women who say, I'm aligned with you because we're women, you're black, I'm white, but I'm aligned with you. Do you see it at? Throughout work, throughout. Oh, yeah. Really, the alignment goes the other way. Really, when the shit hits the fan, the alignment, white women align with the power.

I'm just excited to hear this. I just feel like people are going to feel so... Well, I was actually thinking about share the mic because when you said, is anyone hearing my story? That's what I remember you saying to me. You said, I'll never forget one sentence. You said, I'm just, I'm screaming into the wind. I'm screaming into the wind. I said, how are you or something?

And you said, I'm just, I'm screaming, but no one's hearing me. I'm screaming into the wind.

And then that was a question that led to so low, so many questions. Because then you and Lovey... Yeah. Right? You and Levy came back and were like, you had a whole. You guys, in the 12 minutes, you had a whole plan. Do you remember what happened next?

I don't check WhatsApp anymore.

Oh, you guys.

Speaking of miracles, can we talk about that daughter of yours? I think, you know, Instagram land. is really big on love stories and we as a culture tend to value most of the romantic ones, but I swear to God, I have goosebumps already and you all don't know what I'm going to say, but I'm just saying that the love story of you and Lael has got to be one of the most beautiful ones. Yeah.

Do you listen to your bio and say, what is my life? What did I do? What?

Being told right now. I mean, and for those of you who don't know, you'll have to go. We'll put all the links to Boze's social so you can see all of her genius, but also see this love she has. Just tell us about Lael and what are, even like right now, from where you are in the world and what are your dreams for her?

We met those. Yeah. On the Together Twitch. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I walked into your room and you were already there. I told Abby this morning, the first thing I noticed about you was your clothes. Abby said, is it okay to say that? Is that objectifying? And I was like, I don't know. It's both. I'm just going to, it's fine.

Well, we started this interview with you saying there is no math that says that you should be here where you are in this world. There is also no math that says the little warrior should be where she is. And yet you both... Our freaking warriors, gorgeous warriors, a beautiful love story. When The Urgent Life is ready, will you come back here, please, to tell us the story? I would love to.

I just cannot wait, Bose. I cannot wait. Please send me that book as soon as it's ready, okay?

And the next right thing for all of you pod squatters is just to go back and listen again. Okay? And then pretend when Bose is giving her pep talks to herself that it's for you. Because you are also a miracle.

All right. Bose, go do all of your million important hard things. We love you forever. We will always be in your corner. I love you so much. Thank you. We will talk soon. Thank you for this. Thank you so much. Carry on, warriors. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

I thought you were the most incredibly beautifully dressed human I'd ever seen. And I was intimidated because of your fancy, were all the words behind your name. When you were on stage though, talking. What I was telling Abby this morning that I was most struck by was you were so bold and strong when you were talking about work in the world.

And then the conversation switched to your daughter and motherhood. And then this unbelievable vulnerability came forward. This softness. You just never see both.

Yeah, you're strong and soft are both so. Do you remember meeting us? Were we rememberable?

So one of our themes this year on this pod is how to know when to dig deep and stay and how to know when to stop digging and go. this is something that we have not figured out yet. Okay. Just to preface you with that. But I keep thinking of it in terms of you because I've read some quotes that you've said recently. So you recently left Netflix where you were the global chief marketing officer.

And you said this, you have to know when time is up and keep it moving. And then you said, you don't have to be the savior. You can save yourself too. So, Chills, how did you know when it was time to leave Netflix? Like, how do you know when it's time to leave a place? What settles in?

And everyone will know. And God is like the GPS. That's like redirecting, redirecting.

It's so fascinating, Bose. I've never heard anyone describe it like that. But it is like at some point, whether it's a marriage or a job, relationship, whatever, at some point you realize, oh, it's me either way. Because either it's me in this situation that's making it hard or it's me that made the decision before to go into this relationship. Yes. It's me. Yes.

You have the moment where you're like, either way, it's me, whether it was me that got me into this or it's me that's making being in it hard. Yeah. I'm choosing me. Yes. I'm choosing me. I'm getting the hell out. Yes.

Oh, that's good.

It's that thing about when you grab onto barbed wire, don't just hold on forever. Like, don't keep making the mistake because you've put so much time into making the mistake. That's right. The quickest, we always talk about the squishing the time, like all of our suffering comes in the time between the knowing and the doing.

Since November, Abby, Amanda, and I have been planning, dreaming up ways for this community to show up for each other, take care of each other, and continue building community. But you know that several months ago I quit social media, and the effects of that quitting on my nervous system, mind, and heart have been as dramatic as when I quit drinking.

When I, as a queer woman in a same-sex marriage who is raising queer children, hear news about rights being taken away about the future of this country that might be threatened for my children and me and my family. I have to remind myself when I read and when I listen, what Jessica is saying right now in my home, in my body, I am okay. Right now I'm looking at my child they're okay.

Not because I'm bypassing, but because the next moment is going to come. And then the next moment is going to come. And what the world and those children are going to need is a clear, calm, prepared mother who is thinking clearly and thinking creatively. There is no moment where my clear-headedness and calm does not make me a more effective leader.

If I am panicked constantly, I will not be the leader and the mother that they need when the moment comes for me to activate. So that just in terms of it is not bypassing, it is good leadership.

And if you have friends that you think want to be part of these offerings in this moment, email them, tag them, whatever you need to do to get the newsletter to them because I won't be promoting it heavily on social media. Now, I can promise you two things about this newsletter. I will be writing to you directly. It will be me. I miss writing to you directly. I'm gonna do it on the newsletter.

That's right. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. If you're the pilot of a plane, which we all are, metaphorically, we are all leading our own lives. Some of us are leading other people who are passengers on the plane. We are all leading. It is the wrong idea to think that the pilot who is screaming and panicked and fired up and losing their mind is the strong pilot. Okay? That is not the pilot you want.

Even when there are problems on the plane. Even when it feels like the plane's going down. Then more than ever, you need a clear-minded, calm, strong pilot. pilot. So that's what we're doing here. Right, Jessica? Yes.

It might be the only place that I'm doing that. And two, I will never sell or give or whatever people do with emails, okay? I will keep them safe and sacred. So here's what you do. Go to glennandoyle.com. You will see a signup box in the top middle of the page where you can submit your email address. If you're on Instagram, go to my page, click the link in bio.

And if we want to have our wild and precious lives.

It is about being effective for the next steps for the world. But it is also because we have a birthright to joy, to calm, to peace, to creative lives where we are waking up and figuring out what do we want to do with our time, energy, money, day, love. That we are not constantly in reaction, that we have agency and access to the lives that we want. 100%.

Ahead of the story. That's good. Also on the ride, pod squad, listen, even that language is helpful. When you say that, Jessica, I know what that means in my body. I know when I'm on the ride. It happens so fast. It's like a hijacking of me. I feel it, an intensity building on the inside. What does it feel like for you to be on the ride? Even identifying it is helpful, right?

You will see sign up for newsletter as the second button. Click the button and submit your email address. That's it. We are going to keep showing up for each other. The invitations will start coming soon on the newsletter. So go register now and I'll see you there. Jessica Yellen, our dear friend, is the founder of News Not Noise, a pioneering Webby award-winning independent news brand.

Yeah. It's to care enough. It's not that you don't care. It's to care enough. To do the work in order to be effective, even though it feels different. It feels different than constant outrage. Because it's interesting when you say that, I think, okay, the example I gave earlier about learning about queer rights being taken away and my ultimate fear being that that reaches my home.

If I'm really honest, that's what I'm thinking in that moment. When I'm losing my mind in my home, it has already reached my home. Yes. It is very interesting to be terrified that bodily autonomy will be taken from us. Let's practice now. Let's be in charge of our own bodies and our own nervous systems.

If we don't want our bodies to be controlled by Donald Trump and Elon Musk, how about we start today? Right? Okay. Let's practice. And I think that as long as we're experimenting with this, we'll start with a mini discussion like this to reground us in why we're doing what we're doing. But now let's do some what, Jessica.

When we talked about this episode, we thought let's start with three things that you think the pod squad needs to know and why.

Thank you, Jessica. Thank you. Now, let's get started by talking about what these motherfuckers are up to now, she said so calmly.

Okay. I have a beginner's mind question about that.

How is Elon Musk getting access to all of this? How has that power been given to him? And is this is what we're seeing the move from democracy to oligarchy, meaning is this where a government just starts to be run by some business leaders who are very rich and get access because of that?

Over 1 million subscribers and followers across IG and other digital media rely on Jessica and News Not Noise to understand what matters, which experts to trust, and to manage their information overload. She is the former chief White House correspondent for CNN and an Emmy and Gracie award-winning political correspondent for ABC, MSNBC, and CNN. Hello, pod squad. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Wow.

Today, we are starting and trying a new thing. The new thing we are trying today is calm news. Calm news. I'm going to share with you the origin of this experiment. Last November, I started to slowly and then all at once lose my mind.

Hmm.

It's been wild, and it's been extremely important for me to experience. Since that quitting, I have felt calmer, braver, and clearer, actually. And in the midst of that, we have come up with some honestly terrifyingly realer and more embodied ways to connect with you and as a community than on social media. I want to keep showing up for each other

Can I say back to you what I think I've heard you say in a way that is a new person to all of this just so I can see if I'm understanding it in general. So is this a bit correct? We know that

I hit a point in my life where I realized that paying attention each day to the news as it was presented to me in a way that made every moment feel terrifying and urgent and insane was making me ineffective, was hijacking my nervous system in a way that made me not able to be the human being the mother, the activist, the writer, the thinker that I want to be.

During the Trump campaign this time, Elon and Donald became tight and Elon was contributing huge amounts of money to the Trump campaign with the plan and hope that as soon as Trump was elected, Elon would then become Trump's special guy. What's the name?

Of the country. Okay, great. What could go wrong? Okay, so, ooh. Just went on the ride, coming back. Sorry. No, no, no. That was me. That was good. Catching myself. Okay. So now that plan worked. So now Elon is Donald's special guy. And so he gets to create a department almost. He gets to create his own team.

And that team of Elon's is sort of infiltrating all the different branches of government with what they are saying is their express goal of kind of cutting the fat, making it more efficient. And he has what is unprecedented levels of access without any typical or measurable vetting or... or understanding of what the goal is. Or oversight. Or oversight. Okay.

So in terms of witnessing, that is helpful. I understand in general what is going on with Elon. Thank you, Jessica.

I mean, we are on the wildest timeline. Okay, let me ask you, I would like to do one more because I think usually we will give people three things, but since we did such a beautiful introduction, let's choose one more and then call it a day. It's enough practice for the day.

And I started to understand deeply that it was designed that way, that I wasn't alone, that the news as it was presented was not just to inform me, it was to scare me, to keep me addicted to the television, to keep me addicted to the phone. And not only did I realize that it was ruining my life and my days, but it was stealing my humanity. I was slowly starting to feel a real us in them.

So two things. First of all, can you, Amanda, do what I did with the first one with that? Can you say back to Jessica what you heard her saying, what you would report to someone who wasn't listening to this in a clear, concise way, what she just said?

I was slowly starting to be unable to see the humanity in people who thought different than me. I was in a silo. And the whole thing, as we say in recovery, just became unmanageable. I decided at that time that I was going to stop, just turn off the televisions and stop. and try to reclaim my sanity.

Does that sound right, Jessica? A plus. Okay, great. Can I tell you just before we end what my nervous system story is about this? I just think there should be like a nervous system story because there is a point at which you're talking where I start hearing wah, wah, because. No, no, no. And this is, I want to train.

I'm going to train myself throughout this process because my nervous system story is there's a home invasion. we had a system and now there's been a home invasion and there's no one to call because the people who are supposed to come fix it don't have the power or organization to hold the line and hold these home invaders accountable.

And I'm scared about that because I just saw the ineffectiveness of the people who are supposed to hold home invaders to account because of all that went down in the last election and the inability to hold a line and hold leadership and hold precedent. That is my nervous system story, that now no one is in charge except for people that I don't trust. So is that a story that is untrue?

We also needed a vision for reform. We also needed that. And we didn't have it. And... I'll tell you what, they're clear with their vision.

and new and new beautiful let's take one more deep breath and end with that all right ready everybody all right pod squad thank you for that we'll see you back here next week when we'll try this again calm news the third way thanks pod squad If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

Fast forward a few months later, I started to feel better, calmer, and also deeply irresponsible because I do not want to pretend that there are only two ways, that I either, one, stay addicted to the news as it stands, or two, put my head in the sand and not know how to lead, how to react, how to prepare my children for the world that they are entering. And I realized there had to be a third way.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

During that time, the LA fires happened. My dear friend, Jessica Yellen, came to stay with me during that time because her house was in the line of danger. She sat and stayed at my house for four days with her little dog, Bruno. Oh my God, I miss him. And what happened was that Jessica, as many of you know, she's the founder of News Not Noise.

She's a Webby Award winning news reporter, but she's been in this realm for a very, very long time. She's not only a master reporter, but her entire life has been dedicated to figuring out how to do the news differently for people so that they can ingest what's going on in the world. in a way that makes them more effective, more thoughtful, and more helpful in healing that world.

For four days, she sat with me and I felt the effects of that kind of news reporting. She explained to me what was going on in ways that allowed my nervous system to stay calm and my mind to activate. She explained things in such a way that my children, I watched them their very fearful bodies calm. There was no bypassing. There was no pretending. There was no fake positivity.

There was real delivery of what was going on in the world in a way that was honoring of truth and also of humanity. And at that moment, I realized, oh my God, this is the way. This is the way. We must create this third way for people who want to be informed, want to be educated, but also want to be healthy and effective. Enter Calm News. Today, we are experimenting.

Our dear friend, Jessica Yellen, is here to begin to discuss this third way, how we can do the news in a new way, and perhaps maybe that we can do it together. Jessica, welcome.

Can you talk to us a little bit about this new third way? Because often my experience in life is that I lose my mind, like what I explained earlier. I believe this is my personal problem. right? I take it to therapy. I take it to all the places. I try to figure out what is wrong with me. And then when I start to talk about it, I realize, oh no, this is a universal problem.

And I want to keep building community now more than ever, but I don't want to do it on social media anymore. So here's what I'm telling you today. Soon, I'm going to be inviting you into something special. And the invitation is first going to go to you through my new newsletter. Okay, I have a new newsletter and all of my invitations.

And based on the mass exodus from news that has happened over the past year, it strikes me that perhaps a lot of people were feeling the way that I was feeling. Can you explain to me your take on that and how you think it needs to be done differently and how it can be done differently.

and Abby and Amanda's invitations to new projects, new events, all the beautiful offerings we're planning are going to come to you first on this newsletter. All right, now listen, if history proves to be an indicator, what will happen is the newsletter will go out. Everyone who receives the newsletter will sign up for these offerings and then they will be sold out. That's what happens.

Wow. So before this recording, PodSquad, Jessica called me and basically said, because not only is she a beautiful reporter, but She also knows her friends well. And she basically said in a nutshell, how are you going to stay calm? Like, don't forget. Calm news has to be calm. So talk to us a little bit about witnessing mind and what you're going to bring to us some news. What can we bring?

This is a mutual, the pod squad will need to bring something specific as you bring something specific. What is the listener need to bring to this sort of news to make the outcome what we want it to be, which is clarity, calm, and efficiency, in what to do next.

Yes, we should.

And then everyone gets sad and mad who didn't get the invitation in And since I am in my programs, I know that will not be my responsibility. But still, I don't want it to happen. So please sign up for the newsletter now so you won't be sad or mad later.

Can I stop you right there? Because I want to just give an example of that, because that feels so important to me. And what I want the pod squad to hear is not- What you're telling yourself is all these problems might be happening to other people, but it's not happening to you. So you're fine. That is not what we're saying. What we're saying is, and I'll give you an example.

Vielen Dank.

Strong opinions. That is interesting. It's just any time that you kind of affix some kind of immutable to it is when you get in trouble. If you're like, yes, it absolutely is horseshit. I know that with certainty. It's like maybe you're in trouble because if it is part of your creative expression, then someone might be certain about themselves in this moment.

And maybe in the next moment they have a different certainty about themselves. So maybe you get in trouble when you ascribe any kind of meaning or certainty for others. Whereas if we just were more concerned about interrogating our own creativity and identity Yeah. And only being concerned with that. Yes. Then maybe that's where it would be rich.

Und es kann auch ein weiterer Teil sein für einige Leute. Weil ich denke, wir leben in einem Weltraum, wo das alles über dich definieren muss. Und du musst raus in die Welt und dein erstes Stand-Up, dein Gay May. Und sie sind so, nein, ich bin ein Comic. Warum bin ich Gay May auf der Bühne?

Oder es gibt Leute wie mich, die, weil ich niemals irgendeine Art von Interrogation von mir hatte, weil ich niemals gefragt wurde oder geforcht wurde, es war nur so, dass ich die Position wahrgenommen habe, literal und figurativ. Ich habe einen unterdevelopten Sinn dafür, weil ich nur so war, wie, schau dir die Box an, keine Fragen hier.

Ja, Schwester, stell dir vor, wenn du in einem Interview warst und die ersten fünf Fragen, die Leute dir über deine Sexualität gefragt haben.

Ich bin schockiert, weil die Dame suggeriert, dass du einfach falsch darüber bist. Ich weiß, ich weiß.

Yeah, so some of the examples... And the token hetero on this pod, I will say, I will affirm that, that it didn't occur to me... We even did one on sexuality and I was like, oh, okay, I'll just listen to that one.

The creativity kind of seems at the core of all of this, because if you're getting at the place where you're like, well, what the world is telling me about gender is clearly horseshit. What else is horseshit? Okay, maybe this whole idea that I have to go to school for 12 years and then for four more and then to get the job that I hate, maybe that's horseshit. And you start to get creative.

And then even with your idea of monogamy, it is so wild that there's this kind of compulsory monogamy as the option. Like, where do you think the creativity shows up in relationships that makes different types of relationships possible? I mean, I'm still figuring it out, but I think that where I've been most successful is where

And that's what's the hard part when you're trying to get like, I'm trying to be the truest me, like most authentic to myself. Am I like, am I just saying I want to be the most authentic reflection of the accumulation of my traumas?

Das ist, wo Wet Head für die Rest von uns kommt, die vielleicht nicht so Thrillseekern sind. Das ist vielleicht deine Version, Glennon. Du könntest das probieren.

So if you, you know, have a coke problem, try Wet Head.

Incessantly or something? Also diving well. Probably strategically, probably not incessantly.

Oh, great. Sister, go. I think... I think I might have the same sexuality as May. Okay. Really? Which is fascinating because my things are bodily identifying you in a group. Like with confidence, with some gesture that suggests that you know exactly what's going to happen. Yes. So things like just staring at you right in the eye just a little too long. Eye contact.

Whatever the opposite of creative scarcity is. Because what I admired so much is that after two seasons of Feel Good, you, even though, like, could have kept that going and kept it going creatively, you were like, no, that is how I want to end that. And I believe that there will be abundance for me in other things. And I think that was so special and probably gave a lot of folks...

The invitation to do that, when mostly in Hollywood it's very hard to stop something that you can keep doing. So, kudos to you on that.

Sie hat ihre Hand genommen, ihr Essen auf den Tisch gesetzt und sie auf den Tanzflur gebracht. Wow. Und ich dachte mir, das ist meine Sexualität. Wow. Danke. Und körperliche Bewusstsein von nicht nur sich selbst, sondern auch dir. Also, wenn jemand vorbeigeht, wie sie ihre Hand auf deinem Rücken setzt. Oh, ich hasse das. Und wie man sich bewusst ist, wie...

Ich weiß nicht, es geht um das Bewusstsein deines Körpers.

You know, the quick and dirty description of all of this is just like capitalism, like late stage capitalism enters into kids' sports and takes over. And what always happens is that it becomes a bit of a hunger game situation. And it's because it's all based on scarcity.

And in every system like that, whether it's, you know, Hollywood or writing or sports, the way the system continues is they hold up a few examples of, Exceptional people that made it. Abby and I talked about this last night, how she has some guilt about being this. It's a carrot. Okay. So the Oscars.

Okay. Yeah. The lottery runs because we all know about the winners of the lottery who got so rich. So 0.0001% will become the lottery winner, will become Abby, will be on the Oscars. But that culture holds that up as possible. And so all the parents who are, bless their hearts, in a hunger game situation, we can look at all of this as judgmental and how can you be that way? But

one way to look at it is these parents have brought their kids into the capitalism hunger games and everyone is looking because of our commitment to not taking care of the social fabric, but every man is on his own. Every family feels like a startup. That's like trying to survive. It's not just that their kids are our bosses. It's that we are on our own.

We are fricking little startups trying to make it.

It could be seen, although it gets totally convoluted and horrific, as an act of empowering our kids to make it in one way or another.

Right. Not just on the field, going through the D1 process. I mean, one of the things we just try to do is just at least talk to our kid about what she's in. Like all the time saying, look at what's happening. It would be hilarious to think that the kids who are making it are the most talented kids in the country. That is hilarious.

The kids who are making it are the kids whose parents have enough money to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on all of these trips and all of these, you know, and have the kind of job where they can be done at 4.30 and sit in a freaking parking lot from 6 until 10 o'clock. I mean, there is no meritocracy in sports in any way.

And so the one thing we can do is repeatedly point to the water the kids are swimming in. Mm-hmm. So that they can see the system.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. And today to help us figure out what has gone wrong with kids sports and how we can make it just a little healthier for our own families and communities is Linda Flanagan. Linda is a freelance journalist, former cross-country and track coach, and the author of Take Back the Game, How Money and Mania are Ruining Kids' Sports and Why it Matters.

Yeah.

She is a founding board member of the New York City chapter of the Positive Coaching Alliance, a contributor to Project Play at the Aspen Institute, and a regular writer for NPR's education site, MindShift. She is also currently co-producing a documentary series, on mental health in collegiate women athletes.

Can we talk about this whole, like testing the assumption of this entire endeavor? It is a bit of a family joke, but I think there's something to explore here. When Abby came to the family, everyone jokes that She upgraded our family system, which was a commitment to mediocrity.

And I sensed something wrong and the girls were in gymnastics. Okay. And that was fun. And I had this moment where the woman from the gym walked over to me and sat down next to me. And I was like, oh, here it comes. And she said, your girls are really talented. And I think it's time for them to come four nights a week. Hmm. And I said, girls, you want to play soccer? We never had a good run.

Thank you. I'm watching them. I'm stuck here four hours a day. I understand they're not super talented. Like something else is going on here. And also I am. trying to avoid this like suck into one thing. And also then it takes over the whole family's life. And then they're all revolved around this one thing. And then by the way, what does that do to the kid?

Then the kid knows our whole family's life is revolved around my performance in this one thing. And that's not what we're doing here. That ups the pressure so much. I'm confused in general about pursuit of excellence. I feel like

Assuming that we should all be pursuing excellence, I've experienced and know too many people who are the carrots of the system and watched their mental health, their physical health. I've felt it in myself. I think the cost of it might be too high. I think that everyone's a victim of systems of exceptionalism, everyone who doesn't make it, and especially those who do. make it.

A mother of three and a lifelong athlete, Flanagan lives in Summit with her fabulous husband, Bob, and a small menagerie of pets. I will tell you, Linda, the perspectives we're coming from. So my sister Amanda is a coach of her daughter's basketball team and has coached in her community.

I was listening to you talk about a podcast. Can you tell us what the long-term results on mental health and emotional health of those D1 athletes is?

Can we talk about parent sideline culture and what is going on? I want to start by telling you that when Abby came and said we couldn't be mediocre anymore, which, by the way, I think our kids are as confident and beautiful. What Abby brought was absolutely necessary. I wouldn't change it in any way. But we were on this, like, fancier team or something. I don't know.

I guess when we started the club. An elite team of some kind. But the kids were still, you know, babies.

And that happens very young, I should say.

And the sidelines just got wild. I couldn't believe it. Like, there was screaming. There was yelling. There was just so much behavior that is never tolerated anywhere else, right? And so... they came up with this idea of like a field marshal that one of the parents would have to monitor all the parents' behavior. And so one day I was the field marshal.

And when I tell you- Which she loved, by the way.

Because I used to bring blow pops and like put them in all the parents' mouths. And I would say, suck this so you can remember to not suck. Like, let's just all not suck today. That's great. But one time when I was the field marshal- One of the dads on the sideline lost his shit to the extent that he started screaming, running on the field.

And lacrosse. And volleyball, but all at the rec league. So that's a very distinct.

In this crazy system, it was my job, the 5'2 field marshal, I had to run, go onto the field, talk down this 6'5 man who was our parent on our sideline. Then he wouldn't leave the field.

So then the referee told me it was my responsibility to get this guy to the parking lot. They had to call the police. I mean, the extent we have lost control of the sidelines and the behavior we are modeling for children in this spot that we are calling character building... Please tell us, how did we get here? What are you hearing? What are we going to do about it?

Right. And so she comes from that perspective. She has already noticed some kind of murky ickiness that comes out. Abby has been slightly involved in sports. So I hear. Throughout her life. I don't know if you know about her, but she has been excellent at the sports. Yes. She has that reputation. Yes. Medals and things such as this. So she comes from an amazingly unique perspective on this.

I am a mom, Abby is also this, but of a child who has just committed to a D1 soccer school. So we have been through and experienced the whirlpool that is what I've heard many people call the sports industrial complex. Okay. And so what Abby and I have talked about every single day for the last years of this is something is very wrong. Something is very wrong from

Or you were going to make someone proud. You wanted me to. I mean, Linda, it would not be out of the realm for Abby to come home from a walk and say, I went for a walk. Are you proud of me? We're 48. And I do think about that word a lot. And poor parents, like we just can't win for losing. But I do often think about what is the shadow side of the thing I'm saying.

If I'm saying I'm so proud of you because you scored so many goals today, there's a shadow side of that.

If I am proud of you because you scored goals, it is also automatically true that I will not be proud of you if you do not score goals. That's right.

And then sometimes Abby will come in the room and secretly say, wow, I had a different assessment. Like we, we actually don't add. Abby doesn't add her assessment, but she often has a very different one than the one the child has come to.

You guys, we're doing a live virtual event because since the tour sold out so quickly, Lots of you were sad to not be a part of it and we can't stand your sadness. So we're hosting a virtual event to support those who could not get tickets and to support our beloved local independent bookstores. All the proceeds from this virtual event are going to these local bookstores.

I'm also interested in short-term, how do we help our pod squad families carve out pockets of health inside this system that is not going to change tomorrow? What do you think, sister, as a parent of young kids, what do you want to know about this whole system? I'm so in it. that I don't even know what, how to start it.

the nervousness of the kids on the field, to the cutthroatness, to the parents freaking out on the sidelines, to the old boys clubs of the running the club systems, to the pay to play, the amount of time, the amount of money, just something is very wrong.

And I just want to start off the conversation by saying, we're going to talk about a system and we're going to talk about behaviors and we're going to talk about all of that. And I'm going to judge the shit out of it. And what I want... the pod squad to know right off the bat is I am also in it and of it.

Yeah, that's why I think it's so important what you're saying. It can come across all of this talk as negative. But what I want to say to the pod squad is I feel like telling you all of these things and lifting the veil on all of this is a public service to you because-

If we don't analyze carefully what the big door prize is that we are sacrificing our children's entire lives for and our mental health and our money just so that we might become this 3% or 1%, let's for sure look at the 1% and make sure that that thing is good to us, is what we want.

To me, it feels like one of the only ways out of the system is figuring out do we even want the prize of the system?

And we're already in it. I wanted to do this episode to say to all of, let's just analyze it before we give away our lives for it. Can we talk about coaching culture? Yes. I was raised by a football coach. My sister and I, we have deep respect for the ideal version of what a coach can be. I can tell you that when our daughter has been doing her

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visits to colleges and all of that, I have sat down with these coaches and looked them in the eye and spent time with them because I have seen what I think is coaching that is just unchecked, ways that coaches approach kids as a former teacher that would never be tolerated in a classroom. And for some reason, when we put children on fields with these leaders who are creating

If you enter the whirlpool of this place, you are in it and you can resist and you can be upset. But when I talk about the parents' behavior on the sideline, they are losing it, but I got it in me. I turn into something else. I'm wise enough at this point to mostly control it and keep it inside me. So I don't end up on Instagram. So I get it. That is the perspective that we are all coming from.

such important pathways in their brains and in their bodies. There's no guidelines. Parents don't know what's acceptable, what's not. We can listen to a coach say things or be a certain way that feels wrong to us. But because of the Wild West nature of it, we are convinced by everyone else that this is how it has to be done. That for some reason, the best way to motivate a child on a field

is completely different than what is acceptable and best practice in a classroom. We use shame. We use fear.

Because the power differential is so huge. You are giving your kid.

It's like you're giving your kid to a fundamentalist church and you need to make sure it's a good minister.

Like this is just an empty vessel. Right. This could develop the absolute worst in her or the absolute best in her. What is a good coach? What should parents tolerate? What should they not tolerate?

Can you tell Linda what you were so amazed by that she said that shifted our paradigm right away?

Linda, how do you feel about paying your child for goals and winning games? things.

Unbelievable.

Can I just say another thing that annoys me and then we can just not talk about it because I feel like it's going to be touchy. Have you noticed, Linda, in club soccer, also in like college soccer, that there feels like there's a system that

where the whole coaching staff is just a little old boys club where they just control everything and their entire vibe is not to let anyone else in, like actual celebrated female athletes who would be unbelievable coaches and role models for these girls. And they use tricks and they use the system to constantly replace themselves with their protege who's the next guy.

And they make it impossible for women to infiltrate the system. And so what do you think about that?

Is that right? I'm going to say this because I know that she has to be careful about what she says. I am less careful.

I guess what I've seen from the outside and then you say from the inside, it feels to me like when an Abby or say some of her at the same level friends approach or try to involve themselves in coaching staffs that I would think they would be falling over backwards.

At the club level, because their kids are in it, or at the college level, because they went there. It is perceived as more of a threat to shut down than a gift to accept. And they are pushed to the side and there's resistance. There is no room for you here. in a level that stuns me.

They tell us we arrange it so that we have I quit at a certain time. That's too late for anyone to vote. And then my protege, this guy, he will step in and then there will be no time for any sort of inquiry. And this is how we will continue.

Or if on the other side, maybe we have as many men coaching women, for example, as we have women coaching men. How about that? How would that be fair? Like when you say it that way, everyone's like, oh, that can't be. Yeah. Why the hell not?

All I can tell you is anecdotally, what I have seen happen again and again is that when the women try, they are shut down. And I've seen it with my own eyes with the most elite athletes in the world.

I want to offer one tiny because we need to wrap up here and I can tell you that the best we've been able to do is continue to see it all clearly. You're in the whirlpool. If you're going to step in, you're going to be in the whirlpool. It is very important to keep seeing the whirlpool for what it is. Keep talking to your kids about what it is.

We can't fix it all, but we can say, did you notice how much this is costing? Do you notice who's getting this attention? Do you notice those parents on the sidelines and what's happening? Do you can say or not say on the sideline that make you feel supported. That seems like the most simple, ridiculous thing. That's a game changer for you. It has been. One kid wanted a certain thing.

The other kid wanted nothing said. The third kid, mom, please, just was very specific. Please stop saying, good try.

That makes everybody know I just screwed up. Like specific things like that. She's like, mom, the only people that say good try or good idea are when I did it wrong. I'm like, wow, that's so true. Very specific with me. You can do that. You can ask your kid, what ways do I show up that make you feel embarrassed? What ways do I show up that make you feel good?

What do you want to talk about in the car after? Do you even want me to comment? They'll tell you if they believe that you'll listen.

You guys, thank you. I really appreciate that you're having these conversations. I think just exposing all of this and talking about it is going to help just in that. Just to make all the parents feel less crazy and

Right. And there's a cost to that. There's a cost to that. But what we are here to say is there's a cost to not that. There is a cost to saying, oh, we are actually not going to do that. But there are so many costs involved with just giving up everything.

And so make sure that you have analyzed what that prize is and make sure you want that prize for your kid before you give up everything in your family to get it. Thank you, Linda Flanagan. So great to have you. Enjoyed this so very much. Thank you, guys. It was great to talk to you all. The book is Take Back the Game. I love the subtitle.

How money and mania are ruining kids' sports and why it matters. So important. Thank you for your work. Good luck out there, PodSquad. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod.

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Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, and Bill Schultz.

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Yeah. I want to just stop there and say that this is a really important idea for us to understand as parents and people making decisions for our children. And I am really into an era of testing assumptions that if we're just Assuming things and jumping in, that's not the first step. The first step is to test all assumptions.

And when we say sports are good for children, that's kind of like saying religion is good for children. Okay, what kind? Good point. What system? No, religion is not good for children. There are some religions that you can enter your child in that will destroy them and destroy their spirit, and they'll spend the rest of their lives trying to recover from that.

There are some spiritual communities that you could get involved in that might become fertilizer for your kid's soul. Sports are as an empty vessel as religion is, right? Because even when you say exercise is good for kids, I test that assumption. I had a childhood where maybe the way that exercise was presented to me was not at all healthy.

The thing is not inherently good or bad and must be examined. When you say sports build character, everything you're saying sounds correct to me in terms of testing that assumption, because in the current system we have, I see a little bit of the opposite. The kind of cutthroatness you have to be. So many kids are performing because they are being scared into performing.

And so what might look like resilience, what might look like short-term performance is actually fear-based and If we're not testing those assumptions, we might be building the absolute wrong kind of character that we think they are. Correct? Absolutely.

You have a fear of hell. That fear of hell was placed inside of you purposefully by many, many confused adults and systems and cultures, okay?

Right. Now, here's what I am saying to you. If we are going to live our lives in fear...

Now, What I will say is I know a poem when I see it. I know when we talk about the fires of hell and lots of those things are metaphors. Anyway, some people decided it was literal. They taught it to you. I have some other poetic ideas. If we're going to accept this thing that's going to control our lives out of fear based on some imagery and some poetry, I have an alternative poem to that.

Submit to the court. Okay, great, great. And it is as follows. During the time that Abby has been healing from this pinpointed fear of hell passed to her by the Catholic Church and her family, passed from the Catholic Church via her family to her, I have also watched Abby grieve the loss of her brother. right?

So these two things have been tied together for the past year, just tied together, losing Peter, fear of death and hell, just that's been her path. One side of the path is each of those things. I, because of my contempt for and delight in, I am equally appalled by and intrigued by religion. I can't stand it and love it in equal measures.

I want to obliterate it and want to be obliterated in it equally. It's a confusing thing, but I feel like some people really understand that. Because of that, I know a lot about the imagery and the... I just love to read about it. I'd love to study about it. Okay. Peter. Abby's brother, Peter. Judy Wambach is... Abby's mother. And she is just as Catholic as our grandma, Alice.

Like she just named all of her kids after just, you know, saints and various virgin mothers of God. And Abby's real name is Mary. And we've got the Peters and we've, all of them are just named after saints in the Catholic church. Okay. Peter was Jesus's BFF. St. Peter. Yeah. Well, he wasn't St. Peter yet.

Right, right, right. Abby's brother. Well, we don't know. We don't know. He could have been. Right. St. Peter, Jesus' best friend. They're so tight that when they all ascend to heaven, Jesus assigns Peter... the role of being the gatekeeper of heaven, okay? St. Peter's whole gig to the point where his image, his little icon is a set of keys, okay? St.

Peter's role in the church is I decide who gets in and out of heaven. I guard the gates of heaven. I hold the keys to eternal life, okay? So I tell Abby, What I'm here to report to you is that you no longer have to fear any. You can celebrate the future moment at which you approach the gates of heaven. Because guess who's going to be there? Peter. Peter. is in charge of heaven. There is no way.

If there is a line 40 miles long, that guy's going to see his little sister and he's going to say, get your ass. He's going to have a keg there. If heaven is a club, your brother is the bouncer. You are so getting into that club. Exactly. And if I were God, I would put Abby's brother in charge. He is the most open, like everything was a party. Everybody was invited. Everybody's in his.

Do you want to talk about this? I feel like now I'm talking too much. You go and you, you, you.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We, the three of us, talked about what we might like to share with you today. And here's where we came to. It is a tough time in Los Angeles where Abby and I live right now. We actually live in a town right outside of Los Angeles. So as you know, we have been

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It made me feel, at first I was like, are you kidding me? Like, Abby's been suffering with this for decades and based on faulty information a bit, you know, I mean, it's still all still there, but it made me, we're going to be talking to Sonia and Renee Taylor soon about having these important conversations with our kids based on like sex and faith and money and all. And,

I feel like it has done a major disservice to all of us to consider them the talk. Because we as parents, we're just growing too. And the snapshots of the conversations we have are just snapshots of who we are at that moment. And we are changing and evolving. And how many of us have given our kids the money talk, the sex talk, the faith talk,

At a time from which we have changed and evolved and our children are holding on to that version of what we said one day. When I think about sex and the ideas I used to have about sex when I was in the fundamentalist Christian church, which would have been when I was having some of those early conversations with my kids.

It has to be an evolving conversation that we reveal new thoughts and new doubts and new ideas forever so that we release them from a particular version of that thing. Yeah.

happier time, which was our holiday experience as a family together. And that that just might feel like a really cozy, warm, wonderful thing to do today. You know, I have been thinking a lot about my team will start laughing because of the amount of times that I say this, but I'm obsessed with words. So whenever I can't understand something, I just try to go deep into The entomology of a word.

Well, Peter was the one who took care of everyone in Abby's family. And also he was the dude that just always kept a very centered nervous system, like whenever anyone else would get upset. he just handled everything. And so whenever anyone got in a jam or stuck, he would say, well, what would he say, babe?

So it's engraved on the back. It just says, relax, I'll handle it. Yeah. Because I could see Abby telling Peter how scared she was about heaven and him just saying, relax, I'll handle it. Like leaning on the keg, holding the keys to heaven.

Yeah. It felt like any earlier than that, I felt like it would have been like, I was just trying to distract you or like a patronizing thing. Like there had to be a little bit of space.

Yeah, you were freaking stunned. I was like, oh, I am nailing this report. This is the exact impact I needed this report to have. You looked like you were. I mean, look, it's one of the reasons I love you so much. To me, it felt like the most important moment in the world.

And to you, I could tell in your face that you thought it was one of the most important moments in the world.

I recently learned that I was saying the etymology of a word, which is actually the study of bugs. So entomology of a word means where. Wait, do you have it correct? Yeah. Entomology is words. Etymology is bugs. Are you sure? Never. Never. but I'm pretty, I have a good hunch.

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Isn't it cool the idea of like stories? To me, it feels like, okay, so if I were in a movie where I was like suddenly animated and I was in one of those like superhero movies and I had to have like a superpower. I would be like the story person. It sounds so ridiculous.

I know it sounds crazy, but it is. It's like stories are. Ruin lives. Stories divide civilizations.

Meaning making.

Yeah. We can rail against bad stories like the amount of times that I could tell Abby that. Oh, come on. Here's all my proof that this is just poetry and imagery. Here's all of the studies. Here's all of the papers about why we decided there was a hell. And this is just a thing made up thing about people. None of that ever worked. Except being like, okay, I see your story. I see your hell story.

And I'll raise you a better story. That shit worked. There's some kind of fine... I'll just tell more beautiful stories that can reduce fear and division in a way that I haven't seen battling against a particular story works.

Okay, so it's etymology is the study of words. The irony of this conversation.

Yeah, it is a curation.

And knows more and is programmed better. And I do think it's cool to, you know, how we we've talked about when you're in trauma in any way, you can't see, you just can't see outside your little reality. And, I think that we are all on some level in a bit of trauma, which limits our vision, limits our story.

Let's just land there. This conversation has gone houry before. Anyway. And it's like the origins. The origin of the word. Okay. The etymology of the word crisis. Stay with me. Okay. The word crisis, the origin of the word crisis means to sift. So listen, this is cool. Crisis, not good, bad, terrible. We try to avoid them.

I've mentioned this before, but remember when I watched our neighbor trying to back out of the driveway and he spent 40 minutes going forward and back, forward and back. I don't think you've drawn this story.

Oh, okay. Well, I'm so excited. Are you sure it wasn't me? That sounds like me. No. Well, I'm sure I was watching because that's all I do, but he just kept trying to narrowly, he needed to get out of his driveway. Okay. But the only thing he could think of doing

was all I can describe it was go a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right, a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right. But from my vision, I was watching from above because our houses are kind of like, if you think about like townhouses, they're kind of tall. Anyway, I could see right.

He's trying to get out of his, yeah, okay. Yeah, so I was watching it. And from my thing, I could see all he had to do. There was a trash can. Like all he had to do was move the trash can, get out of his car, move the trash can, and he would have wide open spaces. But he was trying to navigate within this left, right, inside the trash can. And I just kept looking at it going, that is me.

If I could just, I spend all day going left, right, left, right. But if I could just see a little bit higher. Yeah. I could see there's infinite other possibilities. There's always when you think, is it A or is it B? Is it A or is it B? I don't know if it's A or B. It's never A or B. It's always F. Right. Right. And when you can take a breath and get higher and see.

And so that I want to, challenge everyone in the pod squad today, whatever that little decision you're trying to make, is it A or is it B? Tell yourself you're going to give yourself 24 hours. You're not going to make that decision today. And instead you're going to dream up what is C, D and E and F? What if I could see this from such a wide perspective that I could actually see the trash can?

What are the out of the box possibilities that aren't option A or B? Because like, To come back to why I started talking about this, it's very interesting when you're in, say, particular religious trauma, your car situation is you're going back between like, am I going to go to heaven or am I going to go to hell? I'm like, is it heaven or is it hell? Is it heaven or is it hell?

And like anybody looking at you from above is thinking that is not the question.

Let's just continue the story and make it wider and more beautiful.

We love you, PodSquad, so much. Thank you for listening. And we'll see you back here next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod.

While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

But it is cool for me to think of what crises tend to do, which is if you picture a little kid with one of those sieves that they take to the beach, you know, and they like scoop up all the sand and the reason they scoop up all that sand is because they hope that the sand will

filter out the bottom and there will be little treasures left inside, the little sea glass and the shells and all of that. And I do- Bugs, if you're into etymology. Yes, babe, thanks. And I do know through so many experiences that we wouldn't ask for it to come, but what crisis does tend to do

is put into sharp relief the treasures of your life, all of the things that you hold so dear and love, the most important things. And that's what you're seeing right now all over Los Angeles with people just holding their people so tight and rushing to take care of each other.

And the people who have had their things saved because their houses were spared, one of the interesting things is you are watching these people ransack their own homes, bring everything they own to these shelters because they want to give the things that they do have. You can see it playing out, people valuing community and love above things.

It's just, you can see the treasures that crisis brings, even if we don't, even if we'd prefer a different process. So anyway, let's talk about love and family and treasures today.

Do you guys know how in the episode that we did with Jessica Yellen, Jessica's still here, by the way, in our house with her little Bruno and sheltering here, how we talked about Altadena, the city, the historically black neighborhood in LA that has been burned to the ground. And we talked a lot about that city.

And then right after that, we were talking about Octavia Butler and Adrienne Marie Brown and all that Octavia Butler taught us about She wrote about the future in like a dystopian way, but it was absolutely applicable to life now. And I just learned that Octavia Butler is buried in Altadena.

Are you kidding?

No.

she has this little hero in her, in the parable of the sower, which I think is one of her most famous books.

Yeah.

And I just remember this little one had a set of principles of her new religion. Isn't the right word, but way of seeing the world. And the first one over and over again, I think was God has changed. God has changed. God has changed. And, there is obviously something there that is embraceable, even though change is unembraceable.

Like it literally sifts through your hands, like the crisis conversation, but the idea that love is change and that there is truth in the falling apart, that there's a way to find love and God, even in the midst of it all slipping through your fingers. I feel like we're kind of seeing that. It's hard to explain.

And if you're not here, the horror is so stark that the bright moments are just so much brighter. Like it's like,

Yeah.

Still not excited about it. When you were in... Through all of your thoughts, and I already know this answer, so I'm just asking it like I'm an interviewer, but what have you identified as the source of what you would call outsized terror of death?

I am a little bit too.

Do you remember we sat down on a bed and I said, I have something to report.

Yeah. I knew when it was time. Report as soon as you know.

No, I knew when it was time.

Well, I'm happy to do that. I mean, I can tell you to my best ability, how I reported it to you. I, I said, I have something to report. It's an important report. And you said, what's the report? This is something that we say to each other every once in a while because I'll be thinking about something. That's really funny that that's something you say to each other, like breaking news.

Actually, you wear them to work out and you wear them out to dinner. That is true.

It feels like breaking news to me, like because sometimes it's something I've been like noodling in my head for a long time. And then it feels like it's ready to the way I can describe it is it feels like it's ready to be reported. Like it takes a while for it to be ready to report it.

Right. And it's usually something that's a little bit weird. Okay. So here's what I reported. I reported this. You, your biggest issue this last so many years has been your terror of death. We have identified that the distinct terror of death is not just a terror of death. It is a terror of hell. Okay. It is absolutely not a mystery why you are scared of hell. You are a small child.

And you wear them under suits and you wear them to bed.

And the... Please, like the poor pod squad doesn't need to hear me go off again about the utter insanity of teaching small children that there are fires of hell waiting for them if they don't nail this.

It's unfreaking believable. Okay. That is one of the reasons why I love talking about this. I think it's important that people see in real time a case study of someone who's being very honest with you because people don't tell this story or they haven't had the access to the work that will help them untangle the story as a fine of a point as we can put on it. But this is what happens. Okay.

Mm hmm.

I don't know. That's what I interpret everyone as saying to me. They might not be saying that. Or like two critical, two troublemaker vibes. Like, why can't you just not notice that? Why can't you just be happy? Why can't you just... leave it the way it is. Yeah.

We just talked about that. I said to a business partner, okay, because I think this plays out not just in relational, like romantic relationships, in business relationships, in whatever. I have a business partner who was driving me batshit, honestly, because every time I pointed something out, I said, Did you see that? Did you see how that, what happened? Did you see that email?

Did you see how that person said that? She is amazing and loves me. But her fear is, Glennon's going to go batshit. I noticed that too. But what I have to do is say, oh, that was no big deal. Not a big deal. Not a big deal. No, no.

To attempt to keep you from... I had to say to her just yesterday on the phone. I said, I think... That when I notice something, you get scared. And so you think the best thing to do is downplay it. And I need you to know that that is making me insane. It makes me feel gaslit. It makes me feel like you're not on my side. It makes me feel like crazy. It completely invalidates my.

And so what I am saying to you is I promise you, if you stop doing that, if you admit Glenn and I also saw that, that was fucked up. Then I will be able to move on. I will not blow things up, but I need you to not pretend that you don't see what I see just because you're afraid of what I'm going to do.

It's unpolarizing.

Then I get to go, oh, okay, cool. What are we going to do? Like I get to be the big accepting, nice one too.

Every time she says that felt weird, I want to lay down on the ground and cry.

Of happiness.

Wait, is Dr. Solomon going to bring us the wisdom to know the difference? Is Dr. Solomon? Yeah, exactly. So we are today bringing the serenity prayer from all of my 12-step meetings to relationships. I wake up every day, look at my partner, and I say, dear God, grant me the courage to change the things I can about Abby. Yeah.

And change doesn't have to, I don't think of change as something's bad. So you change it. I think of change as the way of life. But I also think that for the changers out there, I feel such empathy for the acceptors. I really do now. And to the changers out there, If you think you're taking your person into couples therapy so that you can change their shit, I just have a warning for you, okay?

The serenity to accept things I cannot change about Abby and the wisdom to know the difference. Bring us the wisdom to know the difference.

Like, if you go in and you're doing it with an open heart and an open mind, bringing the serenity prayer to your marriage, you might eventually find out that it is largely you who cannot see The beauty and gorgeousness and what you need in your life with that person who you married on purpose for a reason because you knew in your heart they were an acceptor.

Thank you.

,,,,,

That's hard. Mm hmm. We can do hard things. I've heard. We can do hard things.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts,

spotify odyssey or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow this is the most important thing for the pod while you're there if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend we would be so grateful we appreciate you very much

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LaGrasso, Alison Schott, and Bill Schultz.

Oh, sister, shut up already. I'm just being very honest.

It's like it reminds me. OK, so it's like there's yin yoga and there's yang yoga. And it's like yoga where you're doing all the stretchy, hard, pushy yoga where everyone's trying to get more flexible and everyone's pushing the boundaries and trying crow is like one kind of yoga. But there's yin yoga, which I used to feel like, why are we just sitting here? What the hell's going on?

And the teacher said, this is the other side of yoga. This is where we do not stretch further. We appreciate what is, and it is as equally important as the other kind of yoga. So it's like two kinds of yoga in the relationship. One person is stretchy, pushy, and one person is rest in what is, and they're both equal.

Well, I used to think you were lazy and now I think you're enlightened and I'm not at all exaggerating about either of those words. I used to think, wait, it's just accepting is just like not... Doing anything.

It's not alive. Like complacent?

Stagnant. And now the healthier I get, truly the more therapy I do, the more untriggered I become, the more I see how Abby lives and accepts as utterly what I need and absolutely beautiful.

Is that what's healthier? Because you can become polarized. I'm this when you're that one. But when you think of it as just a cycle of creation, like I always think of Abby as Sunday. I'm like, let's make the clouds. Let's make the water. Let's make the whatever. And then Abby's like, let's stop and look at it and call it good. That's the Sunday of creation, right?

So it just feels fairer to get it out of our bodies and into what is needed. And then we each get to step into like, pushing and acceptance. And now we've derailed you.

We become a movement that is so beautiful and full of life and humanity and love that we become irresistible and just... That is what Girls Just Want a Weekend is. It is.

It meant something different last year. What it means to me this year, I keep having this challenge at Girls Just Wanna, which is that I just keep starting to cry constantly. And actually everyone in our family, somebody breaks down every day and it's like this huge thing and then it's me maybe four or five times a day. And it's very hard to describe. It's not a feeling.

It's not I'm happy or I'm sad. It is like a internal swelling that is just like being in the presence of complete truth and complete kindness and I guess it's love is what it is. It's just like, it's like coming out of my body or something in tears and then it's like baptism all the time.

Okay. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Get ready for today. Today's episode comes to you from Mexico. So exciting. We are in Mexico at a festival, a music festival started by and run by our Dear, dear friends, Brandi Carlile and Katherine Carlile, we've recorded a live episode for you. This is the first time we've ever done a big live recording of We Can Do Hard Things.

But I also, what it means to me this year, we were talking about this earlier, like what we're gonna have to do this year in particular, like what is this gonna look like? And we're talking about how the language has been really around resistance for so long, and that that's just not beautiful enough anymore. That resisting something means that the thing that's most important is the other thing.

It's in reaction to something.

Right? It's like the other thing is the most important, and we're just reacting to it. But that is not what we're doing here. I don't even know who else exists here. And there was this artist named Toni Cade Barbera, and she said that the job of the artist is to make the revolution irresistible. And this is irresistible. Right? Well said. You don't have to yell at anybody, actually.

It is. And we are so excited for you to listen to this hour with these thousands of gorgeous, irresistible human beings. What I want to tell you before you listen... is just a couple warnings, okay? First of all, I felt really excited because I met this incredible band full of three gorgeous human beings inside and out. Their name is Muna.

That's so exhausting. I'm so tired. Like, I just want joy and beauty and love and thisness. And then everybody else will be like, I want that. Right? So that's what it is to me. It's an irresistible revolution. And you guys started building it. I know you're always like, it wasn't us. I mean, okay, all right. Okay. Okay. It was definitely you. And you built it before we needed it.

And when you say things like, we will show up as long as you show up, people don't say that shit. That makes me want to cry that you said that.

Actually, yeah, let's do that next year. We need one. What do you want to talk about next, love?

Can you talk to us about... We've had so many conversations over the last eight hours, and I don't know how many of them are appropriate for public, so why don't you pick one?

I woke up this morning and I said, my sexuality is Muna.

I mean, I am Muna. I've already composed emails in my head about how I can get them to accept me as their queer elder auntie.

Okay. And in the episode, I say... It's because there were thousands of people there.

For sure. That sounds scary, but we'll do that. Okay. No, I just love their joy and their freedom and their, I loved that they said just Venmo us. I was like, oh my God, you're just like taking away all the middlemen. Like there's something very revolutionary about that.

I'll give her all my money. Whatever you want to do, Katie.

Because there's also like all the queer art can be so angsty and painful and like it all has to be so, and to see them just be like, oh no, it's going to be joyful. Like Silk Chiffon makes me, I'm like, yes, Silk Chiffon, shit.

Anyway.

I was all riled up. And I said that Muna is my sexuality. Okay. And then everyone just started freaking out. And Potswana, if you were there, I could see everyone's faces and Brandy and Kath and Abby. And I felt like, why is everyone making a big deal out of this? Later. Okay. What I meant is that the Muna is three different vibes.

I want to go back to what you were talking about. So this thing happened that I wonder if anyone can relate to. So we were at a bank. You were at a bank? I know, it was so weird. Did you say bank? A bank. This is an old story.

It was when we first got married. And the bank guy gave us a piece of paper and it said, gave it to us at a table, and it said, husband, wife. And I was like, first of all, are you serious? Like, are you looking, do you?

And I said some things about how they might update their paperwork and that we wouldn't be at this bank anymore unless their paper was, and like the time to update their paperwork was like last century. And so it was just like, honestly, a normal Tuesday for me. And we left and we got in the van and Abby said, it makes me feel sad in moments like that because I think, why am I not brave like that?

And we had, it started this beautiful conversation and it's because I grew up with straight privilege. When I walk into a room, I'm expecting to be treated with equality. I'm expecting a certain thing. And how did you feel?

woman she just flung the papers across the table and she just said fix this I'm not signing something that doesn't make any sense to me but that wasn't my point my point is that it was privilege not courage I understand you are so brave you paved the way for people like me to be like I I'm not taking this shit like you and you and you did that what does community mean to you too I have never met anyone who does community

Like you two. This is just the tip of the iceberg of your lives. You have made me less afraid of people.

Thank you. It's something very deep. Like I call you. Yeah, you call me.

Yeah. No, I just mean in a deep way. The way that you invite people into your lives in a way that you're not scared of. The way that you invite people on stages. What does community mean to you? And when you talk about it with each other, How do you make decisions about how you do it? Why does your life look like it looks?

There's three people in the group and one, they all have different like gender and sexuality expression. And what I meant was my expression of my sexuality is Muna. And the reason I'm making a big deal out of this introduction is because I felt like what I said was like I'm attracted to each of them, which would be fine, except I don't want to be objectifying these love bugs.

Like I didn't mean to objectify them. I actually just want to be their queer elder auntie, which I also express in this. I meant my sexuality expression is embodied in all three of them.

Yes, I sometimes think that. I'm like, I'm not a jerk, I'm just very sensitive. And I mean that in a way like truly, if I'm in a room with a lot of people, Abby and I can be in the same room and leave and report completely different experiences, right? It can be a lot for people. What about community is hard for you two?

No, no double enchanted there, no.

I feel like that's actually quite profound. I remember somebody recently said to me, I had to show up for something, and I said, how do I do it? What am I supposed to do? And she said, just be yourself. And I said, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up. And then I thought, what the hell does that mean? And I'm not sure, but it's not that.

I'm going to be so sad if we're at Brandy and Kath's house and Brandy starts playing the piano.

We're out of here. Here's the thing. This is going to maybe sound like a weird question, but does building community take a lot of confidence? Like, I keep thinking, you just invited all these people here and just, like, assumed that people would come. Like, that's so terrifying.

Thank you. And then I want to say one other thing before the pod squad listens is that there was this moment where all of this is about Muna, but I said that what I loved about Muna was that their expression of queerness is so joyful. And sometimes I feel like

it's such a beautiful thing for young queer people to just see the joy because there's always in queer art, there's so much tragedy and trauma and that is real too. But in songs like Silk Chiffon, it's just so gorgeous to see artists saying queerness is,

Okay, so Abby has always been very, very, very afraid of death. And I know we're all afraid of death, but this was kind of huge. And it took us like too many years to figure out that it was tied to the fact that when she was a child, people taught her that there was a fiery place full of flames and devils that after she died, she would go to. It turns out that can do a number on a kid. Okay.

So, I always felt like if I were a superhero, my superpower would be stories. Like, I would, like, look at you and be like, I know you think you deserve to be with a cheater, but I have a better story. Like, I know that you think this, but I have a better story. Like, just more beautiful and more beautiful and beautiful stories because we're all living inside of them.

fun and beautiful and not doesn't have to have the trauma and that actually was Tish's thought but I didn't say it because I was afraid that I mean Tish was sitting oh you stole it from her I basically stole it from Tish but the reason why I didn't say that it was Tish is because she was sitting right in the front row and I didn't have her permission to say it so afterwards I asked her if I could

Well, no, for sure not. But let's say things anyway.

say it was her idea and she said yes. So anyway, good luck with all that.

That was beautiful.

I think that if I could do it over.

Oh, that's right. Then I'd change nothing.

No, they know this. They know this. I think that I would have shifted some of the energy that I... I think I over-indexed on the I've got you energy. I think it was very important for me to feel like the kids knew that I had them, that I had their back, that their mom would do anything for them that I would always make sure they were okay.

Oh, and you all. OK, so we're about to record. We're in this place with thousands of people. Brandy and Kath are there. And then Brandy and Tish go out on stage and together sing the We Can Do Hard Things song to open up the whole thing. And you all are about to hear that now.

And I wish, and I'm trying to fix it now, but I wish that I had put a little less emphasis on I've got you and a little more emphasis on you've got you. Yeah. I think that's where the magic is. That's what we're trying to do. We're just trying to create space where they figure out, I don't have to look to you. I can look to me and you'll be there, but I've got me.

And I think one of the ways we can do that, wait till they get older and start to go out into the world and have their own lives. Because what you find out is that it wasn't just your identity. For me, it's the only place that I've ever felt real belonging ever is in this little microcosm of humans.

And so when they start leaving, it's not only a loss of identity, but it's a loss of belonging, of just a lot. And so what I have figured out is that it's like, you know how, okay, let's say they're like butterflies, right? If you chase them, they just fly faster. And I have tried. There's a chasing energy as they grow that does not work and becomes a burden to them.

And they come back because they think that you need them as opposed to the other way around. And so there is a way of doing it, I think, that is more like creating your little life as that kind of butterfly garden that's so beautiful and so fertile and so attractive that they just want to come back. And I think what I know about you already is that you're doing it because you're here.

You already do have an identity outside those babies. You already are creating yourself and your life and creating an irresistible revolution that they will want to come back to.

Can you tell them what you texted me the day after the election?

You said, oh God, you said... I texted you like five miles of texting. You said it was, one of the things you said was, I know it's awful, I know it's horrible, but have you ever seen...

And if they're not inside, I haven't seen them. Okay, can I just say something specifically to you? I think that One of your instincts to stop exposing yourself to this shit is really, really good. It's like, no offense to anyone who does, but I don't listen to true crime because I want to say stay shocked and appalled by the idea of women being hurt and killed.

I don't want to be desensitized to it, okay? I was talking about this this morning, but so many of us have fought like hell to have lives where we are not constantly exposed to racist, rapey, fascist bullies. Like, we have worked hard for that.

And we feel it viscerally because a lot of us had those kind of people leading our hallways and our classrooms and the buses and our families and all of that.

And so it is okay for you to decide that you are going to create and expose yourself to things that will allow you to be the beautiful, sensitive, soft person that you are, because that is actually a way to avoid the slow march into numbness that allows fascism to take place. That is the work, okay? And we can do a third way. We don't have to do it their way. We can stay informed.

We will create that. I stopped, I haven't been on social media for six months. I decided I'd stop. I do not hate myself enough to do it anymore, okay? I haven't watched the news since the last debate. And I was okay with that. And just recently I've been like, it's time. It's time to figure something else out. Right? And we're going to do that.

I have this dear friend who came to stay with me during the L.A. fires because she was sheltering at our house. And I've been waiting for when I have ideas, I've been waiting for the universe to also have the ideas so I'm not always out there on my own. And

She does the news and she's been doing news in a way that is not like a nervous system hijacking She's gonna start doing the news on the we can do hard things feed.

Okay, this morning, before we were doing the gorgeous screening of Alex's film, Alok, I was thinking about, or maybe feeling about gender this morning. I was asking myself, how do I feel about it today? I like to use fresh language about it all the time.

And I thought, okay, this morning, if I had to describe my gender, I think I would say I am like, my aesthetic is Galinda, but my soul is Elphaba. Like, my gender is... I'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream. Right? My gender is Trojan horse. Okay? I'm like Glinda, but I'm like a better Glinda. I'm like Glinda that gets on the broom. Okay?

I'm Glinda, and if she didn't get on the broom, it's because she had a meeting with Elphaba earlier, and so they decided that she was going to stay in Oz, but she was going to stay in Oz, and her... goal was to liberate Oz from the inside. So her allegiance was still with Elphaba, but she was just like a spy. Okay? This shit happened to me this morning.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I'm not like white feminist Glinda. I'm just feminist Glinda, right? Yeah. Okay. So... There's that. And I also feel like this, and I feel like some femme presenting people feel this way. There's some feminists that can be male gaze-y, that I'm performing for the male gaze, and I know that that's there. But I also think that if I was on a desert island,

after I understood that I was going to die because I can't even get a meal together if I'm in a kitchen full of food, I would then find myself a few days in probably like using sticks to like get my nails right and like making rings and bracelets out of twigs. I think I would be doing that because a lot of that shit for me is not between me and men or me and the male gaze.

It's like I need my nails to be a certain way so I can like Talk to God this way. It's like so God recognizes me. It's like between me and God. My hair and nails are between me and God, okay? I mean, the six pounds of foundation on my face is definitely between me and Instagram, but... The nails and hair are real, okay? So that's my gender. And... Also, Muna. And the Trojan horse thing is like...

I don't know. It's not a performance. It's real. Like, I get invited into places because people think I'm safe. And I'm not safe at all. Like, I'm not safe. You know? Yeah. So, like, I'm there to betray everything. Like, I'm at the table to fuck everything up all the time. So what I'm saying is just don't use the language that they've been given to us about gender.

Just completely go off script and use Disney movies or whatever else. Just use whatever the hell language you feel like. I can't use male and female anymore. And it doesn't make sense to me. It's like the software's been upgraded and I can't understand that language anymore. And I also don't know any men. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know.

But I think that I would like to be, I don't know how to be in a space with men and not feel myself in a violent situation. And I don't mean, that I'm going to get violent, although there is that. I mean, like, I actually have not gotten to a place where I feel bodily autonomy around men.