Joe Natoli

speaker

494 appearances 5 recordings 1 series first heard Jun 2026 last heard 4 Aug

Joe Natoli’s voice in public audio — every appearance, attributed to the second.

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recordings per month · last 12 months

Recordings per month over the last 12 months — 5 in all, peaking in Jul 2026 with 2.

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MAKING UX WORK: The Joe Natoli Podcast · Being Good Isn't Enough. · 21 Jul 2026 podcast

The first game is the craft game, and that's where you focus on your craft, usability, clarity, logic, systems thinking, et cetera, et cetera.

And the second game is the influence game, where you focus on relationships, timing, positioning, strategic storytelling.

Now the problem with design schools and boot camps, university programs, whatever online courses is that they only teach you the first game.

The craft game.

But in the real world, you could be damn sure that it is the second game that determines whether or not your work gets used.

Now let me be clear about something.

I am not saying that you should play political games with people.

I'm saying that you're already in politics, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Okay, you are.

That's the game.

Everything from how you present your work to when you share it to who you loop in early, all that stuff matters.

And if you ignore that side of the work.

You're gonna keep wondering why your best ideas, best solutions never land.

So what do you do?

You get better at the second game.

All right.

You learn how to frame your ideas in terms of business value.

Stop saying, well, this this design is better or it's better UX practice to do this.

Start saying this design will reduce support calls.

This design is going to increase conversion.

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