John Kiriakou

I never sat in a meeting like that.

The meetings were all about how do we win?

How do we get a leg up?

How do we implement the policy that we want whatever country to follow?

That was it.

Oh, Tucker, that was something that I struggled with for at least half of my career at the CIA.

We're supposed to be the good guys, right?

so why are we doing so much of this?

I just never understood it.

And what was, what do you think the answer is?

The answer was that I had the stars in my eyes, that I just, I was not fully understanding of realpolitik.

That you're a liberal.

No.

Right after the Russians invaded Ukraine, I was one of seven journalists, independent journalists, who were invited to lunch with the Russian ambassador in Washington.

And what he wanted was our ideas on how Russia

the US and Russia could continue to cooperate diplomatically even during a time of war.

And I said, I was actually proud of what I said.

I went prepared and I said, the US and Russia have identical interests in counter-terrorism, counter-proliferation, and counter-narcotics.

We should never stop cooperating on those three issues.

And I said, and you know what?