Michael Wolff

And there was a set of other people like that.

Many people turned on Epstein after this.

Yes, yeah, Ghislaine Maxwell.

So Ghislaine Maxwell, who had been very close to him, obviously, after 2004, after the police stepped into this, 2004, 2005, she very much distanced herself from Epstein.

And Epstein was hurt by this.

She distanced herself from Epstein?

Yes.

Yeah.

They had no, I mean, this is in this story and obviously Ghislaine is so closely linked to Epstein at this point and the one person in this whole scandal to go to jail.

But the truth is that by 2004, 2005, she was pretty much out of his life.

Yeah.

And yeah, I mean a little.

You know again, it's very hard to separate.

I mean the whole facts of this of this Epstein story are clouded, not least of all by the fact that that most of the information that we get about this story is from people who don't know anything who are speculating or who are adopting the information they have heard from somebody else who doesn't know anything and the people who do know things.

or have been so paranoid about being connected to Jeffrey Epstein that they haven't spoken.

So therefore, everything or many of the things that we know about this story are soft.

Well, I don't... I mean, I think what's not recognized is that, A, that Ghislaine was out of his life at a relatively long-ago moment, that at...

that while they had had a close relationship, a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship, for a short period, after that, she increasingly became not his partner in crime, but his

His functionary, his employee, she was getting paid and she was carrying out whatever duties he told her to carry out or whatever duties she inferred that she had to carry out.

So I think, again, that's another misperception of this relationship.