Nick Jonsson
Appearances
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
I became a very unhealthy person for the simple reason that I wasn't vulnerable. I didn't ask for help when I really needed it.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, we got to be so careful from not oversharing and going into the office and oversharing everything. We have to decide which are going to be your safe spaces. And if it's in the workplace and you are the senior leader there, there might be that you don't have a safe space there where you can do that.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
It might have to be externally, it can be coaches, mentors, it can be therapists, counselors, it can be anything from a 12-step program. If you have a challenge, you have an addiction, you have something, go and find your tribe, the people who will understand your problem, who can talk your language, go there. But of course, it's good if we can have some friends.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
As I then started to research the subject and I interviewed other senior executives, I found that about 30% of the senior executives I interviewed in Southeast Asia also admitted that they would suffer from loneliness and isolation, either currently or have done in the past. So that tells us that this is a big problem.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Women have a lot of women's groups. We men are getting better and better at having men's group. I'm the chair myself. I have a men's group. We log on once a week for one hour. That's the space for the men to share what's on their mind. So do that. Vulnerable in the workplace is when we make mistakes. We need to own up to our mistakes and just saying, I screwed up here and that's okay.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
How can I do it better next time? That is where I think vulnerability should come in.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, I think it takes a lot of deep work and as men are quite hopeless in general in this, I have to say, sorry to generalize. I'm 50 myself and it took me quite some while. I was not there when I was 40. I was then quite defending and I was quite looking at the world.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
as a place that you couldn't trust people but looking back in hindsight it was perhaps that i couldn't trust myself i was just immature the self-respect was there not there the self-love was not there that's something that only came after i went through my crisis i had my 40 years crisis basically for a couple of years after that i found myself but why do we have to go through something so dramatic to really hit what i did my rock bottom and then build myself back up why couldn't i have done that without
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
this journey, I wasn't vulnerable before. I was not ready for it. And I remember even in my office, downstairs was one of the 12-step programs for alcoholics. And I remember looking at that meeting room and thinking, poor buggers who have to go there, only to find myself in that chair a couple of years later on asking for help, you know?
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
yeah absolutely i believe that what really helped me was then and back to that support group that i joined was to be around other men who are older than me and listening to them and hearing their journey if we're looking back perhaps how men became men in the past there was more of a hands-on job we were with the fathers the grandfathers we were all doing work together we had mentors we had role models we learned that is not there anymore and i think that there's a big gap that at least i could feel and
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
I also didn't do things like joining the army or the military, which was also compulsory in Sweden, where I grew up in the past. And people said, you become a man when you do that for one or two years, going through a little bit of tough and hardness. I didn't have that in my life. So therefore, it seemed I needed my crash and my fall and admit that I needed to do what they call in recovery.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
I needed to surrender and then look at others, what I was doing and picking up the good pieces there.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, I've also heard that. And people think, and even some of the women that heard that we are running this men's group, they actually didn't even believe it. They thought I was joking when I said it. And some of the guys have said, no, that's definitely not for me. I would never join that. But those are perhaps the people who would need it the most. And I was one of those people also before.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And it takes a while before we get there. So I would say we all need to open our mind a little bit, I think, in general, because that's a better place when we are joining groups and we can listen to others who especially are a few years older than us, then we can pick up so much.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah. And that was by getting the support of others. I had others who lifted me up. And again, I go back to these kind of recovery meetings because they're very valuable here. I was wondering when I came in there and I admit that I had a drinking problem, I was surprised that around that table were people who had one month sobriety, three months sobriety, seven years sobriety, 30 years sobriety.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And I was thinking, poor buggers who are coming here for 30 years. And I thought, what's wrong with them? If they stopped drinking 30 years ago, what are they doing here? I found out later on the reason why they are there is to give back to help others. They were there for me. And that is the 12th step in all the programs, the 12th step.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
It doesn't matter if it's food addiction, alcohol addiction, gambling or sex addiction, whatever issue there is, the 12th step is to give it back. And there's a saying in the recovery community which says, you've got to give back the gift to keep it. And that's what we're talking about here. So to answer your question, why did I continue to go up? Because I had others who helped me.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Others carried me and lifted me. And now what am I doing today? I'm paying it back. I'm helping others. I actually just got a message before our meeting today from someone who a man who's today had one year sobriety. And he said, this is the best year of my life. He found himself deeper. He no longer need to run to the bar to drink off the work to wind down.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
He can deal with his emotions in different ways. He can talk to his therapist. He can now have conversations with his wife about feeling something that he didn't dare to do before. So I think it's, again, becoming authentic, becoming vulnerable. and really take ownership for what we're facing and deal with them. And that is why I keep going.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
I'm now seven years into my journey coming back and I'm just loving it.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, there's a few things that really stand out. And being a coach myself as well, I typically look at the wheel of life, the eight areas of the life. And I normally ask my participants to do a self-assessment to look at the different areas. And there is consistency. It doesn't matter where I do the workshop. The biggest gaps always is on physical health.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
People, especially if you're driving the corporate world high, you are in senior roles, then people feel that They want to have a physical health. They will say the desired score might be a nine or a 10 on a scale of a 10, but they're sitting at the three or four. That is always the biggest gap. And I experienced that today again.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
I think you could be right. It could be even stronger and even more challenging in the US. But already what I saw was we live in this world where we elbow our way up the top to that corporate ladder only to find ourselves at the top like how I did. And then I question it. I question myself. Why did I do this? I pushed myself so hard to get here. To get here for what?
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
So people don't find the time and the discipline or the means to actually look after themselves, not exercising well enough, not having a good enough diet and just burning themselves at both. And that is the major issue that I'm facing.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
I think if you've got to deliver in a leadership position, you've got to have the house in order. You've got to really have a strong foundation to work on that. And I talk a lot about professional athletes. I do the Ironman triathlons myself. So I exercise on average about three hours a day to look after myself to be able to deliver at the high level.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And I question people then who perhaps don't even go for a walk, who never move at all. All they do is working. And it's almost like if you compare this to a professional athlete, then imagine if you're an athlete and all you do is coming in and do going competitions. You never train, you never rest, you never prepare yourself.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
you're always just competing so that's how i see the people who come to work they work 12 14 16 hours a day without preparing for it no wonder they're going to burn out and no wonder that the results are not going to be what they should there's mistakes and there's all kind of issues happening that's why eventually they need different ways to cope and that's why drugs alcohol and other addiction social media and so on is coming into play they're seeking this
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
a sheep route, a shortcut to an escape rather than dealing with it, which would be perhaps to connect with nature through a hike or a walk or a jog or a swim or a cycle or something else.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And that was the beginning of my fall, as it happens with many others, because we define ourselves in this work. We strive so hard. And then if we lose that, even by ourselves, by realizing this is not the right mountain I climbed, or that the company go through acquisition, or they lay us off, and then we lose our identity with that.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
one where do you think is that just our kind of pleasure-seeking culture that's been shoved down our throats through social media and just in general advertising and products yeah and that's the most common excuse what i'm hearing then is i don't have time for it all there's all these excuses but what i'm saying then especially if we're talking about leaders here i say if you are a leader
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
the way i think about it the time you spend sitting in meetings on zoom or you're sitting on your computer working or sending emails that's when you are the administrator i said if you're a leader you need your ceo time you need your creativity you need your strategy time and you've got to be in top-notch creativity and in the right space to do that and that will that moment will not come sitting in the office that will come when you jump out of the pool
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
You come from that jog or that run or even during the run, that's when it will come to you. That's when you get the million-dollar decisions. So if you don't get that, then you're never going to perform at the high level. I block three-hour slots every morning for my self-time.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
It doesn't mean that I go for a workout all that time, but that's my prayer, my meditation, my self-care, can be my exercise, whatever it is. And that's non-negotiable. If I have to move that in the morning, then it will come in the afternoon or the evening. And that is how I keep myself in that form to deliver. But to answer then your question, what do people do? Shortcuts.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
We have all these great apps. We have Netflix that starts autoplaying an episode and someone is maybe spending time watching the news following the world affairs, even though they're not in control of the world affairs. So I think we've got to prioritize what we do.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And they were actually laughing today in the workshop when I explained that in March 2020, during the lockdowns, during COVID, I had enough of the news and I uninstalled the TV and I haven't plugged it in since then.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
That's right. I haven't watched any mainstream news since 2020. Wow, good for you.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, that's fascinating. I get some part of it. Of course, I get it by memes. I follow all the news.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yes, actually, I started my research around large organizations because I worked in a company with 1,400 staff myself. We can maybe call that the medium, but it's definitely not the startup for a small company. And that's what I wrote the book about. But as I then started to talk about this, more and more entrepreneurs came to me and said, Nick, this resonates with me as well.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, we have covered a bit on it, and it is the lack of support, the lack of support system. We touched on that as well. That's a huge one. And the workshop today, for example, mainly from big MSC's company, they don't have that in place. They don't have it. They don't have anyone they speak with. And of course, when you ask why, they say, my company provide an internal mentoring program.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And what is happening then? If you have an internal mentor, it happens the same as when I had mine. We're trying to impress that person instead when we have the conversation. Why? Because that person probably have a say in your next promotion. You wouldn't be open and vulnerable and share your biggest challenges, what you're facing to someone internally.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Again, we have to take ownership for our own lives. Yes, it's great if you have a great job and the company is looking after you, they have their policies and they have some internal, but we got to look at our own life with full ownership and that goes for our career as well. Why would we trust that our company look after our career? It's not in their interest. It's taking that self-ownership.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And there's wonderful coaches who can help us to strategize that and look at that and looking at the next level. And also, we shouldn't put all eggs in one basket and trust that the company will employ you for 30 years and then be surprised when there's a layoff next year. So I think... thinking about and having that portfolio kind of career mindset where you're constantly building your portfolio.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Already, if you are in a corporate job, save some money and build up something that is chasing your dreams. What they're lacking is purpose. I'm asking in all my conferences, all my talks, I'm asking them, who in here knows your life purpose? And typically in an audience of 1,000 or 1,500, two hands going up.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
that means that people walk around their lives not knowing the purpose and they're completely lost and then they wonder why they fall from failure to failure so that is definitely another thing i'm seeing that lack of purpose
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, again, it's about, and this is linked to purpose. Think what is it that you wanted to do? If you lose your job tomorrow, what would you do? Do you have some passions? Do you have something that is cooking inside you that you would love to do? Start that journey now and map out what it is.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And join some associations, read all the books on that subject and really become an expert in that topic already now. Create the name for yourself. That's so easy these days in this world. And you can build that sort of side career already. And then I heard someone today when we had this conversation said.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
my company don't allow me to have an additional income I said great and fine then build this expertise in an area where you call it a non-profit and that's your way of giving back now the day when you are perhaps losing your job or then you want to ready to take step remove those words from the website you have your platform you can start invoice customers from day one so be proactive about it and build it and see it as the opportunity to create something
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Running a small shop, I don't have anyone to speak to. No one can understand me. But however, I have investors who put on pressure. I have the board who really demand the results. Then this can be a very lonely affair. And we find, indeed, a lot of entrepreneurs finding themselves completely lonely, isolated, burnt out. And if we talk at the extreme end also,
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, absolutely. Finding your purpose is definitely a journey. It's not something that is a big crack overnight and just find any kind of direction, as we say. And what happened to me for my journey, I started to become a volunteer for a suicide prevention agency in Singapore, a cause that is big to my heart.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
A major portion of my work and my keynotes and so on amounts are donated to that cause and also volunteer for them and so on. That is close to my heart and gives me a lot of meaning to do that. That doesn't mean that's my only purpose. I also find meaning in other things, including keeping fit and helping others to be fit. So, yeah, it's just about starting that journey.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
They can have a look at my LinkedIn profile. I'm quite active there. And it's Nick Johnson, N-I-C-K-J-O-N-S-S-O-N. If they want to look up my book, it's Executive Loneliness. It's available on Amazon as a Kindle paperback and also on Kindle as an audiobook. Tremendous.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Thanks, Ryan.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, we got to have safe spaces. If we are a man, for example, we need perhaps our men's group. We need some tribe where we can be open and honest and vulnerable, where we express our feelings. And then as professionally, we need to be in some organizations with other entrepreneurs, ideally entrepreneurs
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
We're sort of building similar kind of organizations, not competitors per se, so that we can feel safe. And then we can discuss the work-related challenges just to get that sympathy and understanding from others and that we are there to support each other. If we don't have any of that, then it can be a very lonely affair.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Many entrepreneurs I'm speaking with who define themselves also in this business and they take it as a... personal failure if the business doesn't work it could just be that it's a failing business model and it's not a personal failure per se yeah i think it
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
challenges will come setbacks will come and it's about how we handle them and indeed we can be proactive and the best way to do it is to look in your kind of space your field ideally identify perhaps some mentors so a little bit ahead of you in your game who you can reach out to and ask them okay would you mind to have a call with me from time to time do you mind if i reach out when things get tough and i do that myself as an author i have identified
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
authors who've written more books with me, more powerful books with me, and when I get that writer's block, I'm writing my second book now, then I have some people I can dial and I can call. I do the same with my speaking career. I have keynote speakers, I have facilitators, trainers in different spaces.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
who are way ahead of me some who are five years some 10 i even have some gurus 20 years ahead of me who i can call when i need to so for that if you're in tech or in that space then find someone who's a techie who's done it who's maybe scaled up their business to 250 or 500 staff and have those calls and be ready when the roller coaster is starting that would be my tip
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
public speaking and training and mentors, for example, it's in the Asia Pacific Speaking Association, which we have in Singapore. I join their summits, their conferences in person. Sometimes I volunteer to perhaps do a role there in the board. You get to know some people in person. And if you feel that they have what you have as a speaker, then build a relationship and talk to them.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
You're not always going to get a yes, but some of them are in the space that they want to give back. They're writing their legacy. And if you have an important business or a message that resonates with them, all you're asking for perhaps is a half an hour call from time to time. And I think everyone naturally is scared of...
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
being rejected but i would say go for it you have nothing to lose by asking but if you do it in person the most people i speak with have been offering and i'm also offering this myself to others and it's surprising how few people take me up on it when i go for it yeah that's a really interesting point this goes to one of the things we were talking about before we went live which is vulnerability which i absolutely want to transition to i think and this might be the perfect moment there's
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, absolutely. So why did I then cover loneliness? First off, I found myself quite lonely and isolated in my career. If you asked me at the time, would I be lonely and isolated? My answer would be no. But looking back at my corporate career, why did I resign in the end? Why did I burn out in the corporate career? It was because I isolated myself.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Yeah, what I do when I do my workshops and keynotes, I share my story, the Nick who wasn't vulnerable. And that was not pretty. I actually went down the rabbit hole myself by not being vulnerable. And that was led to my corporate career and the crash of it. I even fell over to alcoholism for some time. I gained about 50, 60 pounds.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
I became a very unhealthy person for the simple reason that I wasn't vulnerable. I didn't ask for help when I really needed it. That's about seven, eight years ago now. I rebuilt myself and I see Asking for help is my greatest strength today. I have mapped out people in all different areas who can mentor me. Also, I'm about paying it forward and giving it back at the same time.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
And indeed, that was part of my training today. And one book that helped me that I read and that I applied and recommended to the audience today is by author Andy Lopata. He wrote a book called Just Ask. And he's really talking about this. How can you make
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
asking for help your greatest strength and by making it simple but also in his research he found that actually people are terrified of asking for help and he's even wrote an earlier book that was called and death came third and that's talking about basically serving people and they found The death wasn't as scary as walking into a room full of strangers and talking to them.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
So I think we just have that fear, that blockage. And that is about them practicing the vulnerability muscle. And we can do that in safe spaces and conversations by becoming more open, more vulnerable. And we can also prepare ourselves, as Andy will talk about in his books. If you're going to an event, you're going to that event. Think, what is it I want to get out of this?
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
Which are the people I want to meet? Or even script a few questions before. Have a note in your pocket and just stick to the script. This is what I want to ask. And then walk around and have meaningful conversations. And then things get a lot easier.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
I was just too scared to be open, to be vulnerable, to ask for help. I was at the time a general manager of leading 72 hospitals and clinics in Indonesia, Jakarta. I wanted the next role. And for that, I tried to set myself up for success. I was not ready to talk. That left me lonely and isolated.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
No, I fully agree with you. I offer my time quite frequently, but it's very few who pick it up, even though you serve it on a silver plate, simply because maybe the fear of being rejected or whatever it is. But if someone indeed approach, I'm also there for interns and people who are reaching out.
The Ryan Hanley Show
Why Entrepreneurs Are Depressed (And No One Cares Until It’s Too Late)
So, yeah, I think the clear message here to anyone, think about who you need to reach out to and take that call or walk up to people and ask the right question. Be prepared. Yeah.