Robyn Malcolm

And we had great chats with her about all of that because it's all up here.

And what I found making this doco was how just all roads cross

you're not having sex anymore to make babies, which means you're a certain age in your life, which means your lack of fertility is a source of shame, which means that your body is a source of shame, which means that your dry vagina is a source of shame, which means that everything aging in you is a source of shame.

So why on earth would you want to rip your clothes off and throw yourself at anybody?

Because you're really fighting so much shame.

So unless you unpack all of that,

You know, I heard this amazing thing the other day.

I can't remember who said this to me.

But women, as we get older, our noses grow slightly longer and our chins grow slightly bigger.

And I went, that's the profile of the witch.

Wow.

The long-nosed, big-chinned woman is the profile of the witch.

So a squillion years ago, we turned that into a,

you know, into a cartoon, into a terror figure.

Yeah, icon of fear.

Yeah.

So women, aging women sit in the middle of all of that.

So the idea that you would want to have this free relation, and the irony is, as you've quite rightly said, we actually do feel quite good in our own bodies when we're on, you know,

But you're battling a lot of shame as well.

And so that to me is until we unpack all of it, you know, we're not going to get to really the –