Ross Douthat

Right.

I mean, you were very critical during the campaign, right, during the 2024 campaign when he was already distancing himself from the pro-life cause.

From time to time.

Yeah, that happens.

From time to time.

Do you think that he is talking about persuasion and talking about the idea that...

Ultimately, for the pro-life cause to triumph, it can't be a Republican issue, right?

It has to be an issue that brings people together across party lines.

Isn't that hard to do, as long as a figure as polarizing as Donald Trump is seen as the primary spokesman for your cause?

I don't think that's fair, but I think there's, I guess I'd put it this way, I think there's an entanglement that always happens in politics between the persona of the president, like he's a dominant figure in conservatism today, or the right today, maybe we don't want to say in conservatism, I'm not sure.

I think it's fair to say if you were sketching the ideal spokesman for the kind of idealistic

cause that you're describing, it probably wouldn't look like Donald Trump.

How do you imagine the pro-life movement escaping being just a conservative cause, just a Republican cause, just a partisan cause?

Like what role can politics play in getting you beyond politics, I guess?

I should note those statistics are hotly debated.

About the mass attendance?

I just did a podcast episode that is available on YouTube that contains a long debate about that.

On church attendance and Gen Z and everything.

I just want to stipulate that.

Yes.