Steve Fishman

You'll love it. Here's the trailer. I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

You'll love it. Here's the trailer. I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Some monster. It reminded me of Bigfoot.

Some monster. It reminded me of Bigfoot.

One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession.

One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession.

Something very snake-like lifted its head out of the water.

Something very snake-like lifted its head out of the water.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Some monster reminded me of Bigfoot.

Some monster reminded me of Bigfoot.

One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession.

One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession.

Something very snake-like lifted its head out of the water.

Something very snake-like lifted its head out of the water.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them a minute. Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them a minute. Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Here's the trailer. I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

Here's the trailer. I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

You'll love it. Here's the trailer. I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Some monster reminded me of Bigfoot.

One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession.

Something very snake-like lifted its head out of the water.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Some monster. It reminded me of Bigfoot.

One of the boys started to exhibit demonic possession.

Something very snake-like lifted its head out of the water.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Here's the trailer. I'm standing here with Joe Loya. Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them a minute. Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

Listen to Get the Money and Run starting May 6th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire season all at once, ad-free, subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts for subscribers. The show drops one week early, April 29th.

Listen to Get the Money and Run starting May 6th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire season all at once, ad-free, subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts for subscribers. The show drops one week early, April 29th.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Listen to Get the Money and Run starting May 6th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the entire season all at once, ad-free, subscribe to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple Podcasts for subscribers. The show drops one week early, April 29th.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. Our new series, Season 4 in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run. You'll love it. Here's the trailer.

Hi there, this is Steve Fishman from Orbit Media.

Our new series, season four in the Burden Feed, is Get the Money and Run.

You'll love it.

Here's the trailer.

I'm standing here with Joe Loya.

Over 14 months, Joe robbed so many banks, he lost count.

Listen to Get the Money and Run on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Exactly. But what she comes across there turns out to be crucial to her understanding of the entire story.

Exactly. But what she comes across there turns out to be crucial to her understanding of the entire story.

So Frenchy was excited by her discovery. I want to point out, though, that what the prosecutor is saying is that he'd be stunned if a jury believed Teresa Gomez. What he's not saying is that she's lying.

So Frenchy was excited by her discovery. I want to point out, though, that what the prosecutor is saying is that he'd be stunned if a jury believed Teresa Gomez. What he's not saying is that she's lying.

She goes to prison, unannounced, to find Robert Hill.

She goes to prison, unannounced, to find Robert Hill.

Frenchy is waiting in the visitor's room for Robert Hill. He's serving 18 years to life. He's not expecting her.

Frenchy is waiting in the visitor's room for Robert Hill. He's serving 18 years to life. He's not expecting her.

But for Robert Hill, talking about Teresa Gomez is not an easy decision. He's about to come up for parole. And one of the things that's drilled into somebody applying for parole is you got to go in, take responsibility, show remorse. You got to ask forgiveness. Now, that's going to be hard to do if you're also telling a New York Times reporter, hey, I didn't do it.

But for Robert Hill, talking about Teresa Gomez is not an easy decision. He's about to come up for parole. And one of the things that's drilled into somebody applying for parole is you got to go in, take responsibility, show remorse. You got to ask forgiveness. Now, that's going to be hard to do if you're also telling a New York Times reporter, hey, I didn't do it.

That's our Frenchie. She'll save your life at your peril. And Robert Hill, let's face it, he needs his life saved. So maybe it's worth the risk. Hill starts talking, and he tells Frenchie, Teresa Gomez is a liar. Frenchie goes on her way, and soon she's working on a front-page story for The Times, one that she hopes will make a splash.

That's our Frenchie. She'll save your life at your peril. And Robert Hill, let's face it, he needs his life saved. So maybe it's worth the risk. Hill starts talking, and he tells Frenchie, Teresa Gomez is a liar. Frenchie goes on her way, and soon she's working on a front-page story for The Times, one that she hopes will make a splash.

A copy of Frenchie's story eventually arrives at the prison library.

A copy of Frenchie's story eventually arrives at the prison library.

By this point, Chewbacca's been incarcerated for 22 years.

By this point, Chewbacca's been incarcerated for 22 years.

It's Derek and his jailhouse law firm that will lead the charge against Scarcella. With Derek and Louie, it will be a zero-sum game. If one rises, the other must fall. We got to get at this guy. Here's where I enter the story. It was a few years after Frenchie's scoop. I was a New York Magazine journalist back then.

It's Derek and his jailhouse law firm that will lead the charge against Scarcella. With Derek and Louie, it will be a zero-sum game. If one rises, the other must fall. We got to get at this guy. Here's where I enter the story. It was a few years after Frenchie's scoop. I was a New York Magazine journalist back then.

I'd just moved to a new neighborhood in Brooklyn, and on a whim, I decided to open a cocktail bar. I did not have a grand vision. There was an empty space, 224 square feet. How hard could it be? I called it Irv's after my dad, and I loved the place. The neighborhood loved it. The people on the block loved it. Some even worked there. But that little dead end on which Irv's resided? What a block.

I'd just moved to a new neighborhood in Brooklyn, and on a whim, I decided to open a cocktail bar. I did not have a grand vision. There was an empty space, 224 square feet. How hard could it be? I called it Irv's after my dad, and I loved the place. The neighborhood loved it. The people on the block loved it. Some even worked there. But that little dead end on which Irv's resided? What a block.

Old school. Hey, it was like the 90s in New York City, that block. One day, there was a guy chasing somebody with a machete. Another day, a guy ran down the block shooting at someone. Fortunately, not a terrific shot. Intellectually, politically, I'm skeptical of the police. I marched in the marches. Their methods sometimes frighten me.

Old school. Hey, it was like the 90s in New York City, that block. One day, there was a guy chasing somebody with a machete. Another day, a guy ran down the block shooting at someone. Fortunately, not a terrific shot. Intellectually, politically, I'm skeptical of the police. I marched in the marches. Their methods sometimes frighten me.

But when violence erupted on my block, the block where my bar resided, I needed someone to call. Who else was I going to call but the police? It turned out that Luis Scarcella had spent a good part of his career patrolling my bar's dead-end block. And there was a moment I found myself wondering if I needed a tough cop to come in and restore some order so I could run my little business.

But when violence erupted on my block, the block where my bar resided, I needed someone to call. Who else was I going to call but the police? It turned out that Luis Scarcella had spent a good part of his career patrolling my bar's dead-end block. And there was a moment I found myself wondering if I needed a tough cop to come in and restore some order so I could run my little business.

Do you ever imagine that clock goes off?

Do you ever imagine that clock goes off?

Later, Louie would come by, and he'd offer an appraisal, an appraisal which proved prophetic.

Later, Louie would come by, and he'd offer an appraisal, an appraisal which proved prophetic.

I remember that first night you came, and I remember you telling me about your experience with cops.

I remember that first night you came, and I remember you telling me about your experience with cops.

Yes, you did. But the one I remember, the one that made an impression on me, starts with a pull-up on a scaffold.

Yes, you did. But the one I remember, the one that made an impression on me, starts with a pull-up on a scaffold.

I remember hearing that story and thinking, man, this is crazy. Law school students doing a pull-up and then end up getting beaten by cops. That's just racism, flat out.

I remember hearing that story and thinking, man, this is crazy. Law school students doing a pull-up and then end up getting beaten by cops. That's just racism, flat out.

Well, here's what I can say. We enter this journey through different doors, don't we? Yes, we do.

Well, here's what I can say. We enter this journey through different doors, don't we? Yes, we do.

Welcome to Louie's Brooklyn, where bad guys were around every corner, and it was up to Detective Scarcella to protect the people. They needed me, and I loved doing it. Louie's heyday was the 80s and 90s, and back then, all New Yorkers, even the most liberal columnists, wanted law and order.

Welcome to Louie's Brooklyn, where bad guys were around every corner, and it was up to Detective Scarcella to protect the people. They needed me, and I loved doing it. Louie's heyday was the 80s and 90s, and back then, all New Yorkers, even the most liberal columnists, wanted law and order.

Buckle up. In this series, we're gonna look at it all from the inside. We'll get deep on Scarcella. We're here.

Buckle up. In this series, we're gonna look at it all from the inside. We'll get deep on Scarcella. We're here.

We'll dive into the Brooklyn criminal justice system.

We'll dive into the Brooklyn criminal justice system.

And targeting the detective at the center of it all.

And targeting the detective at the center of it all.

Next time on The Burden, I try to get Luis Scarcella to give it all up. He used to be a talker. Then with the bad headlines, he mostly shut up. Frenchy couldn't get him to talk, but I'm on a mission. Turns out that mission starts with a plunge into the freezing Atlantic. Make sure your bathing suits don't come off today. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Well, I did it last time.

Next time on The Burden, I try to get Luis Scarcella to give it all up. He used to be a talker. Then with the bad headlines, he mostly shut up. Frenchy couldn't get him to talk, but I'm on a mission. Turns out that mission starts with a plunge into the freezing Atlantic. Make sure your bathing suits don't come off today. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Well, I did it last time.

Luis Garcella had movie star good looks, smoked a cigar everywhere, and he was tough. He seemed like he was the kind of tough cop the city needed.

Luis Garcella had movie star good looks, smoked a cigar everywhere, and he was tough. He seemed like he was the kind of tough cop the city needed.

Luis Garcella was known as the closer, the one who got the confession. And with that came fame. He was on the Dr. Phil show.

Luis Garcella was known as the closer, the one who got the confession. And with that came fame. He was on the Dr. Phil show.

I'm Steve Fishman. I've lived in New York a long time. I've been writing about crime for a long time. As a journalist, I've interviewed cops, prosecutors, criminals. Son of Sam, Bernie Madoff, they opened up to me. I felt I knew a lot about the criminal justice system. So when I heard these headlines about Scarcella, my thought, this cannot be the whole story.

I'm Steve Fishman. I've lived in New York a long time. I've been writing about crime for a long time. As a journalist, I've interviewed cops, prosecutors, criminals. Son of Sam, Bernie Madoff, they opened up to me. I felt I knew a lot about the criminal justice system. So when I heard these headlines about Scarcella, my thought, this cannot be the whole story.

Was this really about one rogue cop who, what, hoodwinked an entire system?

Was this really about one rogue cop who, what, hoodwinked an entire system?

We're gonna go deep. Is Louis a hero cop, a scapegoat, or a super villain who helped put away more than 20 innocent men? Men who now want revenge. I don't know, man. Maybe they want vindication. You know, that's what Luis Garcella feels he deserves, too.

We're gonna go deep. Is Louis a hero cop, a scapegoat, or a super villain who helped put away more than 20 innocent men? Men who now want revenge. I don't know, man. Maybe they want vindication. You know, that's what Luis Garcella feels he deserves, too.

Today on the show, The Scoop. All right, Steve, where do we begin? We begin with the person who broke the Luis Garcello story long before you or I got involved. That's Frances Robles, known to her New York Times colleagues as Frenchie.

Today on the show, The Scoop. All right, Steve, where do we begin? We begin with the person who broke the Luis Garcello story long before you or I got involved. That's Frances Robles, known to her New York Times colleagues as Frenchie.

Frenchie's from Queens, from an Italian neighborhood called Howard Beach.

Frenchie's from Queens, from an Italian neighborhood called Howard Beach.

And growing up there, it taught Frenchie to be fierce.

And growing up there, it taught Frenchie to be fierce.

This was the 1980s, and Frenchie was in high school, living in a dangerous neighborhood in a dangerous city. One night, her mother was a victim. Her mother was carjacked. A gun was put to her head right in front of their house. And then her mother was summoned to the police station to identify the carjacker in the lineup, the man who'd been arrested in the stolen vehicle.

This was the 1980s, and Frenchie was in high school, living in a dangerous neighborhood in a dangerous city. One night, her mother was a victim. Her mother was carjacked. A gun was put to her head right in front of their house. And then her mother was summoned to the police station to identify the carjacker in the lineup, the man who'd been arrested in the stolen vehicle.

Guilty enough for her. Yeah, back then, it didn't matter to Frenchy if this guy did this crime. But later, Frenchy became a reporter, first at the Miami Herald and then at the New York Times. And her views evolved.

Guilty enough for her. Yeah, back then, it didn't matter to Frenchy if this guy did this crime. But later, Frenchy became a reporter, first at the Miami Herald and then at the New York Times. And her views evolved.

So Frenchie brings it to her editor.

So Frenchie brings it to her editor.

Dax, this is the first story I ever heard Louis Scarcella tell. The legendary New York detective. Tell me more. So Detective Scarcella is with his partner. They're testifying in court one day. It's lunchtime. The court breaks, and Detective Scarcella and his partner decide that this is the moment to track down a murder suspect.

Dax, this is the first story I ever heard Louis Scarcella tell. The legendary New York detective. Tell me more. So Detective Scarcella is with his partner. They're testifying in court one day. It's lunchtime. The court breaks, and Detective Scarcella and his partner decide that this is the moment to track down a murder suspect.

So she went back to Derek. She needed the name of that very talented witness. And that's when Derek gives her a legal document. This was a document written by one of his friends still in jail, another jailhouse lawyer. It's called a 440 motion. And it's what you file if you're trying to get your conviction overturned.

So she went back to Derek. She needed the name of that very talented witness. And that's when Derek gives her a legal document. This was a document written by one of his friends still in jail, another jailhouse lawyer. It's called a 440 motion. And it's what you file if you're trying to get your conviction overturned.

Shabaka and Derek got close in prison. Now, Derek urges Shabaka to talk to Frenchie.

Shabaka and Derek got close in prison. Now, Derek urges Shabaka to talk to Frenchie.

So Frenchie has the name. Now she does what a lot of us do when we're hunting for information. She Googles.

So Frenchie has the name. Now she does what a lot of us do when we're hunting for information. She Googles.