Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing day 19. This as we learn new DNA evidence discovered. What? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. But can an amateur really elude the FBI for this long?
And obviously, Nancy, he doesn't even know what he's doing.
Chapter 2: What new DNA evidence was discovered in Nancy Guthrie's case?
I mean, he's looking at the ground. It's just like a lot of wrong in this picture.
What was he doing in that home? Seemingly more updates every night. During the night, news unfolds in the search for Nancy Guthrie. We are learning about new DNA found two weeks after After Nancy goes missing, a pinky ring that seems to be easily identifiable. This as a search extends into Mexico, regardless of what authorities are trying to tell us.
That is so much more as Google is lending another helping hand with me and all-star panel to make sense of what we're learning right now. Is Nancy Guthrie alive? Is Nancy Guthrie dead? What is her family going through as we go to air right now? Dave Mack joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter. New DNA, what?
Well, you know what, Nancy? Earlier this week, we knew that law enforcement investigators had been back at the house, and we knew they were looking for something. Well, apparently, they were all over the house looking for biological material, and that's what they found. Investigators found biological material that does not belong to Nancy Guthrie.
They found it inside the home, and again, you pointed it out. weeks after the home had already been searched, after evidence had been collected, and after the home was briefly turned back to the family before the investigators shut it back down. But still, two weeks after this crime began, law enforcement finding biological material inside the home that does not belong to Nancy Guthrie.
Guys, we're showing you Nancy's home right now. This is from our friends at 12 News. There's so many directions to go with this bombshell. It's maybe a bombshell to only... crime watchers, crime aficionados, people like us, prosecutors, former FBI, lawyers, shrinks, DNA experts. You got a big, big problem with the fact that this DNA is discovered two weeks later. Let's go ahead. Let's
Tackle it head on. Joining me, Kelly Hyman, veteran trial attorney, analyst, podcast star of Once Upon a Crime in Hollywood. Kelly, go ahead. I've got, I'm ready for you. See, I know what you're going to say and I'm ready for you. Go ahead. Attack the DNA. I'm ready.
DNA is key to this case. Why is DNA so important? Because the DNA can prove who was there. The DNA can help substantiate who was in the house at this time. The police went in and then two weeks later, find this DNA, All of a sudden, after two weeks, it's found? Now, I could see a lot of couch investigators saying that there's something wrong with that.
Why didn't they find this DNA the first time? Why is it all of a sudden being found, Nancy?
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Chapter 3: How is the search for Nancy Guthrie extending into Mexico?
They're mind readers. They now know who the perp is. They go get his DNA and they plant it. Yeah. Straight out to Scott Eicher joining me. Now I'm giving her time to come up with her next attack, and believe me, she will. Scott Eicher joined me, digital forensics expert, founding member of the FBI cellular analysis survey team.
They're the ones behind the scenes that are getting all the phone numbers and phone data and much, much more from the area. That, I contend, is why they pulled over the first guy, the first catch and release. Remember him? Um, he was released and I think he was picked up because his phone kept pinging in the area. He had nothing to do with it by the way. I hate to even keep mentioning his name.
He had nothing to do with this, but that's what CAST is doing and much, much more. Also, former homicide detective with Norfolk, Virginia, 12 years. Now, he is with Precision Cellular Analysis at PCAexperts.com. As much as I am poo-pooing her, Kelly Hyman is right. This is going to be subjected to a huge attack.
I imagine what happened, Scott, is that the local Pima County went in and processed the scene. The FBI was finally allowed in, and they reprocessed it and found the DNA. What do you think?
I think you're correct there. Also, the scenarios change. First of all, it was a missing person.
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Chapter 4: What challenges does the family face during the investigation?
And then later on, we'd get ransom. And now we're looking at it as a kidnapping. So you come in with fresh eyes or different eyes to look at different things. Now, I definitely think that a full process should have been done immediately once they realized this was possibly a kidnapping. But
Fresh eyes and the FBI with its specialized equipment and knowledge, that's always good to go back and look again. As long as they've kept the crime scene, which it appears that they have not, we can still go in and look for DNA and hopefully any other evidence and recover it.
Okay, well, Scott Eicher, let me have you address this because you've been with a local police department in Norfolk, Virginia.
Chapter 5: What are the implications of the newly found DNA evidence?
You were a homicide detective there, and you were fed for many, many years. Let's give PEMA a tiny break here. This type of ransom, kidnap for ransom, is rare. I can count them on two hands that we know of, right? I've done a lot of kidnaps. I've investigated and prosecuted kidnaps, but not of this nature, right? More like carjack, put the victim in the car and take off. That's kidnap.
More like take the victim to a secluded location and rape her. That's a kidnap. There are many, many genre of kidnaps, right? Kidnap for ransom is a very rare bird indeed. So not just Pima, but generally all across the country, expertise in kidnap cases, it's few and far between. Would you agree with that?
I definitely agree. And local police departments normally wouldn't deal with this in the first place. Once it becomes a suspected kidnapping, the federal authorities can come in and help those local police departments. And we do come in with a lot of experts in several different aspects, DNA, cellular stuff, BAU, our behavioral analysis unit.
All this can help those local police departments get a grip on what's going on here and help them work through the case.
And I understand, I disagree, but I understand why they are very possessive of the case that they started investigating. Look, when I was state prosecutor, I liked the feds because I had been a fed before. But I also loathed them because they act like they know everything because they do. But they really rub it in and they bigfoot you. Nobody likes that.
But when you're trying to do what's best for your case, you let them in. So I wonder about how much the delay of bringing the feds in on this cost the investigation. And now we're seeing the first fatality. I'm not saying the DNA was planted. That's impossible because we don't know who the culprit is yet. Right? So you can't plant the DNA. That said, Kelly Hyman is right.
This DNA is going to be subjected to a strict scrutiny and a heated cross-examination, and I hope the state and the DNA can survive. Look at OJ. Does somebody really believe the LAPD had the wherewithal to go plant the victim's blood on Simpson's socks? No.
And I guarantee you, after all these years, whoever did the planting or who knows about the planting would have done a blockbuster movie and a book and made millions and millions of dollars. Hasn't happened because that didn't happen. Nobody planted this DNA. It would be impossible at this juncture.
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Chapter 6: What is the role of the Searching Mothers of Sonora in this case?
Now, speaking of DNA so heavily, and I haven't even gotten to the rest of the news yet, to Tammy Ballard joining us. She is a DNA crime scene consultant. crime scene investigation and reconstruction is her specialty.
Former, this is the important part for our purposes tonight, former DNA criminalist at the San Diego police department crime lab, San Diego, never a lack of business, never a lack of DNA experimentation going on in that lab. Tammy Ballard, thank you for being with us. Okay. You're the expert. I can make a stab at asking you the questions, but you tell me your thoughts first.
By the way, that's how I would always approach an expert when preparing for trial. I recognize you know a lot more than any of us on this panel about DNA. So instruct us, teach us. Tell me your thoughts on this, Tammy Ballard.
Well, with respect to the finding the DNA evidence, Two weeks later, my first thought would be to compare that to the DNA from everybody who has entered that resident, just to rule that out so there's no embarrassment down the road. I'm not, nobody's perfect. I've returned to scenes and found additional evidence.
Everybody wishes they could go to a scene and process just to make sure they didn't overlook anything. The two week later thing, is a little tough, but it is what it is. And again, the important thing is that that's getting collected.
I need to follow up on something you just said. Did you say that you, Tennie Ballard, have gone back to scenes to process them again?
If more information has come out and I'm allowed to go to a scene and check for additional items, I've also returned to a scene with one of the gurus, Tom Bevel, who is from Bevel Gardener and Associates, and walked through my double homicide with him and learned from him about some additional stains that I could have collected. You've got to stay humble, stay open.
Everybody there should be as a team and just trying to do the right thing and find Nancy Guthrie and the perpetrator.
Okay. That sentiment is shared by everyone on the panel. What do you mean you went back with Beville and he pointed out additional things that you should have tested and from that point on you did that? What additional things did he instruct for you to test?
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Chapter 7: How do polygraphs play a role in the investigation?
What the prize is, is finding Nancy Guthrie. And that is just a sideshow. We'll deal with that if and when we ever get to trial. So what type of DNA, Tammy Ballard, do you believe was found, obviously, by the feds? By two weeks. And Dave Mack, anybody on the panel, jump in if I'm wrong. After about two weeks, I'm pretty sure the feds were already in. There was a...
a standoff for a while where the locals did not want them in. They're refusing to admit that. It's true. They did get in. So I'm imagining it's them that went back. So what type of DNA do you believe they found that they didn't see the first time?
I can only imagine that it was going to be an item of evidence that is an outlier, not necessarily a bloodstain or any touch DNA from
something that is stationary in the home i'm expecting or i would imagine that it's going to be some sort of article from something uh that is something that you can remove from that home so not a table not not a sofa it's going to be and some sort of article of clothing or a tool or something that is going to be that outlier where they will the dna from that item
Again, joining us, an all-star panel trying to make sense of everything. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, psychoanalyst out of the L.A. jurisdiction, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock and find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I know that this is a step forward, but sometimes it must feel for the family that it's one step forward, two steps back.
You know, Nancy, of course it feels that way to them because what's horrible for the family is the unknown. They have no idea if their mother is dead or alive. They don't know how she's been treated. And Nancy, when we face the unknown, We project into it our worst possible fears.
That's how we evolved as a species biologically is we evolved to be suspicious of the unknown so we could keep ourselves safe. But that's what causes anxiety, right? When we don't know how a situation is going to turn out. So in this case with the mother, they're going to be wondering, like, is she cold? Is she being fed? What about her medications? How has she been treated by the perpetrator?
Are they kind to her? Are they cruel to her? Has she passed? If so, under what circumstances? Was there somebody there to hold her hand? I mean, this is agonizing for the family. They need to know. They need all these details so that they can sleep, so that they can think, so that they can move on with their lives. They need their mother back.
Whether she's deceased or alive, Nancy, they need to know what's happened to her.
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Chapter 8: Why is the involvement of the FBI crucial in this investigation?
And we believe in the essential goodness of every human being. And it's never too late.
On behalf of our family, we want to thank all of you for the prayers for our beloved mom, Nancy. We feel them and we continue to believe that she feels them too. Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal, fiercely loving woman of goodness and light. She is funny and spunky and clever and She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd around her and cover her with kisses. She loves fun and adventure.
She is a devoted friend. She is full of kindness and knowledge. Talk to her and you'll see.
The light is missing from our lives. Nancy is our mother. We are her children. She is our beacon. She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances. She chooses joy day after day.
There you see the Guthrie siblings begging for the return of their mother, Nancy Guthrie. The investigation goes on now, extending into Mexico, we learn. Hopefully, the Mexican iFamilia database will be used for DNA as well as DNA. international databases. Guys, we also are learning about polygraphs that went down into the evening last night. Dave Mack, what about it?
Well, as normally a case develops with everybody involved. Now, you've got workers all around the house that are being investigated because they should. Anyone with access to the home has been brought in. And we're talking about people, even including the pool workers that came by the other day to clean the pool. Nancy Guthrie doesn't normally have a pool cleaning service.
The family called it out to make sure that it was being kept up. But you know what? Nancy, everybody with access to that home, everybody with access to Nancy Guthrie, probably people at church as well as everywhere else, is being polygraphed to find out everything law enforcement can at this point. And as you mentioned early on, somebody rejecting a polygraph is going to become a huge suspect.
Dave Mack, did you actually say that the church congregants are being polygraphed or they should be polygraphed?
should be polygraphed, I misspoke. But everybody should be Nancy.
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