Show notes
Special Announcement #1 Attend the Legendary Summer Intensive Featuring Drs. David Burns and Jill Levitt August 8 - 11. 2024 Learn Advanced TEAM-CBT skills Heal yourself, heal your patients First Intensive in 5 years! It will knock your socks off! Limited Seating--Act Fast Click for registration / more information! Sadly, this workshop is a training program which will be limited to therapists and mental health professionals and graduate students in a mental health field Apologies, but therapists have complained when non-therapists have attended our continuing education training programs. This is partly because of the intimate nature of the small group exercises and the personal work the therapists may do during the workshop. Certified coaches and counselors are welcome to attend. Special Announcement #2 Here's some GREAT news! The Feeling Great App is now available in both app stores (IOS and Android) and is for therapists and the general public, and you can take a ride for free! Check it Today's Ask David Podcast We have lots of great questions today. The answers in the show notes were written prior to the podcast, and the answers in the live podcast as we discussed these questions may differ somewhat or amplify the written materials in these show notes. We love your questions. Remember to send them to [email protected]. Ask David Questions for Today Bosley asks: My father can be very critical of my plans for the future. What’s the best way to respond to him? Willie asks: I have a dating questions. Why do women keep ghosting me? Should they be more willing to work out differences with the Five Secrets of Communication? 1. Bosley asks: My father can be very critical of my plans for the future. What’s the best way to respond to him? "To explain somewhat concisely, I just want to move to the nearest major city (Seattle) since I feel really really happy there. I also love volunteering for a specific organization and have some community there that I care about, and I feel very isolated having been away from for months. I'm willing to carry the load of all the work I would need to do to make it happen, and do a business training my dad wants me to complete. He has other thoughts. He looks down on volunteering and his thoughts on friends are simply that I can make new ones anyway. He is very aggressive and intimidating in his arguments, full of insults and many factually incorrect statements that are difficult to disarm on the fly. He shoots down the idea upon mention, so it's difficult to collaborate to find mutually beneficial solutions. He is a successful businessman, despite recent financial issues, and has a sort of strict plan for me that he has wanted me to follow, although I really don't feel this conflicts with his goals to have me run things in the future. I'm just worried since he has a long past of being emotionally abusive and of going back on his word. Plus, I just want some autonomy. In the end, it's his way or the highway. He says “You keep scheming and going down a twisted path instead of doing what I tell you.” David’s reply I suggested he might complete the first four steps of the Relationship Journal so we could see how he’s communicating with his dad. Here is Bosley’s partially partially completed Relationship Journal (showing steps 1 to 4, but not 5.) Step 1 – S/he said: Write down exactly what the other person said. Be brief: You keep scheming and going down a twisted path instead of doing what I tell you! Step 2 – I said: Write down exactly what you said next. Be brief: What? Circle or bold the emotions S/HE might have been feeling Circle or bold the emotions YOU were feeling Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious Other (specify) Other (specify) Step 3 – Good Vs. Bad Communication: Was your response an example of good or bad communication? Use the EAR Checklist to analyze what you wrote down in Step 2 Step 4 – Consequences: Did your response in Step 2 make the problem better or worse? Why? It probably made things worse. I came off dismissive, which probably confirmed for him that I automatically ignored any advice or direction that he gave me. I wasn’t assertive in fear of escalating anger or just being shut down anyway, but that also maintains the status quo. I didn’t, and typically don’t, show a caring respectful attitude. This, I think, allows his anger to continue snowballing into more intensity. 2. Willie asks why women he’s dating “ghost” him instead of working out the problems in the relationship using the techniques in your book, Feeling Good Together. Good morning, Dr. Burns! I hope you are doing well! I want to start off by saying that I love your books and they've played a massive role in changing my personality for the better. However, there is a question I struggle with. In feeling good together, you say that one can keep status quo, solve their problem, or walk away from a relationship. I lean very strongly on the side of always wanting to solve problems. However, at my age, most of girls I date err on the side of just walking away and this opens me up for unnecessary headache and pain. I don't know where to draw the line? My heart says that any two reasonable adults can always make a relationship work given that at least one wants to make things better and, unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case in my experiences. Your insight would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for taking the time! Best Regards, Willie David’s reply Thank you, Willie, I’d love to use this as an Ask David question for one of the podcasts, if that’s okay, using your first name or a fake name if you prefer. Here’s the super short answer. I wrote a book on that exact topic called Intimate Connections. Essentially you probably need to learn a little more about how to “play the game” when dating. You’ll see what this means when you read the book. Warmly, david Willie's Response: Good morning, Dr. Burns! Frankly, I was not expecting a response at all, much less as quick as it was. For this, I truly want to thank you for taking the time to do so. Secondly, it will be my honor if you do bring it up to your podcast. Please don't use my first name - I'd prefer staying anonymous. Please do let me know which podcast this will be so I can give it a listen as well. Lastly, thank you so much for referring me to your book. That will be my next read so I am super excited. If you have any other books which you believe are worth reading which will be beneficial in the dating world, corporate world, etc., please point me to those. I absolutely love your books and their effects on me have been immeasurable. Thank you! Willie I wrote back and suggested we could use the fake name Willie, as he wanted to remain anonymous, and he responded: Now that you say, Willie is definitely sexier! Question: when are you planning on doing the next episode with this question in it? I wouldn't want to miss it. Here was my response to “Willie.” We’ll just read your question, and then provide opinions. My career in private practice has a majority of single individuals who were trying unsuccessfully to connect in the dating world. That’s why I wrote that book, which is intensely personal as I was the biggest loser of all for a long time because I was a minister’s son and never learned how to “play the game” or be a “bad boy.” But I learned from a friend who was a “hustler” when I was in medical school. I learned a tremendous amount, including that there is a game-playing phase in dating, and a time to be more serious, open and vulnerable. The biggest mistake men make is trying to get too serious when they should be playing the game. What’s the game? Well, you’d know if you ever had or loved a cat. If you chase them enthusiastically, you force them to run away. You have to learn how to make them chase you. Many men are stubborn about this, and lamely insist, “But I shouldn’t have to play the game!” My answer would be, “You don’t! Especially if you don’t want to get laid and have lots of ladies chasing you!” Warmly, david Willie’s response This is extremely valuable to me. I never knew that you come from a religious background and I do too so I do want to ask you some more questions / share my experience. One pattern I am noticing is that either Muslim ladies have a lot of religious trauma or they have very strict conservative values - usually a combination of both. In the modern world, I try using dating apps and might get matched with someone 2-3 states away so usually we would hop on a FaceTime and the topic of religion almost always comes up. And, due to differing opinions, they just walk away which deeply upsets me because they make the false assumption that humans are snapshots in time i.e., opinions / perspectives don't change. In fact, a personal experience I would like to share with you. I was in a relationship for 1.5 yrs (long distance) and it just ended 1-2 months ago. Our intention was always to get married. However, a few weeks before breaking up with me, she basically said "oh you don't pray and I cannot even imagine my future husband not praying etc etc" and she ended things with me on that. I even tried using the 5 methods of effective communication to acknowledge and validate her opinions while simultaneously sharing mine but she was dead set and did not even want to think about working on problems. How could I "play the game" in such instances or over long distances? David’s response Hi Willie, The principles of dating are the same in all cultures for the most part, and one rule is “Never chase a distancer.” So, when she switches to religion, you could use the listen skills subset of the Five Secrets, and buy in to what she’s saying, WITHOUT arguing or presenting your own thinking. You can admire her, urge her to tell you more about her religious feelings and spiritual life, using liberal Thought and Feeling Empathy, and lots of Disarming Techniques, and Stroking, with Gentle Inquiry. You would NOT chase, or try to persuade, or argue, or defend yourself. Be totally admiring and other-centered at those times. If she says she wants to break up, you might say that you’ve been sensing some distance, and are relieved that she is doing that, because you, too, would like to date other women, but that the two of you can still be friends if she promises not to get romantically involved with you, and that you will be on the lookout for some really great guys she might want to date. This is a paradoxical approach, and it is an art form. And I can also tell you to date other women immediately, and the moment you find one you like better than her, she will find out, even if no one tells her, and she will likely want you back again. That’s because of the Burns rule, which states: “People NEVER want what they CAN have; they ONLY want they CAN’T have!” Now, if you tell me this approach is phony, I would tell you that you’re 200% right! And it’s not only incredibly phony, it’s amazingly effective! And a kinder word that “phony” might be to say that when someone starts pulling away, you have to switch into this style and strategic approach, and stop trying to be loving and sincere or logical, etc. Do NOT chase, simply open your hands and let go. It’s the exact same strategy you might use to get close to a cat! Best, david Hi Willie, If you’d like, you can send me an example of what one of the Muslim ladies said to you, and exactly what you said next. Please select an interaction that didn’t go well. Then I can analyze your response and suggest some alternative ways to respond in a dating situation. In fact, if you like, you can record it on the Relationship Journal that I’ve attached. Please fill in steps 1 through 4. Please do this right away as we record tomorrow. Best, david Hi Dr. Burns, I cannot even tell you how much these emails are already changing my outlook. I truly want to thank you for taking the time and responding to these. One thing that caught my eye is the paradoxical approach. I never thought about it. In my mind, I feel you should work on relationships / never let go but if letting go is working on it, then that is something I really need to do. I am attaching two copies of the Relationship journal. One dealing with the topic of drugs and one with prayer. One thing I will tell you is that I usually bring these topics up myself because, in my mind, I don't want to deceive anyone and get these big topics out of the way as early on as I can and I think I am making a mistake somewhere here. Thank you, again, for taking the time and responding to these emails! Looking forward to what you think about the topics of conflict I have been having! Best Willie 😉 Willie’s Relationship Journal #1 Step 1 – S/he said: Write down exactly what the other person said. Be brief: Religion is super important to me. As a Muslim, I want my partner to pray 5x a day. Step 2 – I said: Write down exactly what you said next. Be brief: Religion is super important in today’s day and age. It is a part of our culture and I definitely want to introduce my kids to it. However, I don’t think that prayer in and of itself makes you religious - if anything, the more external your religion means the higher likelihood of hypocrisy. In my mind, everyone’s religion is between them and god so the best you can carry is one that no one else even knows of - kind of like charity. Circle the emotions S/HE might have been feeling Circle the emotions YOU were feeling Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious Angry, mad, resentful, annoyed, irritated, upset, furious Other (specify) Other (specify) Taken for granted, unappreciated Willie’s Relationship Journal #2 Step 1 – S/he said: Write down exactly what the other person said. Be brief: All kinds of drugs are bad and I don’t want to date anyone who does them. Step 2 – I said: Write down exactly what you said next. Be brief: I strongly agree. Any kind of drug that can open you up to addiction can have a lot of negative effects and that’s one of the reasons why I don’t even drink coffee. On the other hand, latest research does suggest that drugs like hallucinogens can have positive effects on people so even though I don’t do them, I have tried once and keep an open door for them primarily because they are not addictive. Circle the emotions S/HE might have been feeling Circle the emotions YOU were feeling Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Sad, blue, depressed, down, unhappy Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Anxious, worried, panicky, nervous, frightened Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Guilty, remorseful, bad, ashamed Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Inferior, worthless, inadequate, defective, incompetent Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Lonely, unloved, unwanted, rejected, alone, abandoned Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Embarrassed, foolish, humiliated, self-conscious Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated Frustrated, stuck, thwarted, defeated David's Reply to Willie's RJs This is the analysis of his initial RJs Thanks good start. You might have time to redo them a bit. You failed to circle the feelings she might be having (or use bold face) as well as your own feelings. This will help you with the E and A of the EAR Checklist. You got the general idea, but you’re missing some crucial details. Also, your responses are both argumentative, all about you, and not using any real disarming or empathy / inquiry to draw her out. You are trying to “win” an argument, which is a a 100% guarantee that you will lose! And you are trying to persuade, which is a 100% guarantee to push her way and force her to reject you. Best, david In the show, We analyzed Willie’s responses to the two examples from the Relationship Journal. Rhonda, Matt, and David agreed that Willie was not acknowledging her feelings or empathizing with her at all. She likely had many feelings that we listed on the show, along with his. We focused on how he might respond with Other- rather than Self-Centered conversational skills. It was clear how he was “forcing” the ladies to reject him, and how could respond in a radically different and far more appealing manner. Both Matt and Rhonda did a superb job of role-playing and teaching in this podcast segment!! After the podcast was recorded, Matt had some thoughts about how his response (when playing the role of Willie during the podcast) could be improved. Here's his commentary: Hi Rhonda and David, I had some follow-up thoughts on the role-play with Willie, which I hope are potentially helpful for him. If you agreed, maybe they could go into the show notes? I had given myself a B, but wasn’t sure why. I think I have a better understanding now. First, I agree with Rhonda that suggesting I simply fulfill her request to pray five times per day and that that would mean my dreams come true if it might lead to being with her was an error. I think it was probably problem-solving, as well as an agenda-setting error with Willie, who will likely want to stick to his decisions around what’s right for him in terms of practicing his faith. Instead, I think my error might have been “chasing”, and the missing ingredient was probably “Open Hands”. While Rhonda really appreciated my empathic response, it is also possible that such a response would backfire, at the “intensity matching” level, especially if what willies ex is saying is that she doesn’t want to be with him. It would then be an error to push her towards talking more about her feelings. Something like (in addition to other 5-Secrets)… “On the other hand, it would make sense if you didn’t want to talk about those feelings with me. Perhaps you’re just letting me know that this isn’t going to work for you. That would be sad, but also totally understandable and we could just end the conversation, here. I’d be sad if that were the case because I really like you. On the other hand, prayer is very important to you and it’s perfectly valid that you wouldn’t want to be with a guy who doesn’t pray”. This would have better demonstrated the paradoxical element of being a “bad boy” or just interpersonally effective, than what I had said. Thanks again for having me in the podcast!! Fondly, Matt And here is Rhonda's response to Matt: Hi Matt: Now your response jumped from A+++ to A++++. I think acknowledging their differences is so respectful. The conversation may indeed have ended there, but it would have ended with respect and understanding and good feelings instead of the confusion, betrayal and other challenging feelings we mentioned on the podcast. Thank you for following up, Rhonda Thanks for listening today! Next week we will start Practical Philosophy month. We will provide solutions to the five most popular puzzles in philosophy, and will also show how they related to emotional problems as well as The DSM and how we think about and diagnosis so-called "mental disorders." Rhonda, Matt, and David