How We Limit Non-beneficial Life Sustaining Treatments: Jason Batten, Liz Dzeng, Teva Brender
episode
GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
49 min
2 speakers
8 chapters
transcribed 10 hours ago
Transcript
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What is the main focus of the episode on limiting non‑beneficial life‑sustaining treatments?
Before we start this podcast, we'd just like to say a big thank you to those donors who've donated more than a hundred dollars to the Jerry Powell podcast recently, including
Leslie Emmerich, Bob Arnold, Ginger Robin, Matt Schuster, Maureen Kearney, and Kenny Lamb. And on to the show.
This podcast is not see me eligible. If people do want to learn more about C Me Eligible Podcasts, Alex, what do they do?
They can go to cherrypal dot org backslash CME.
And on to the show. Welcome to the JerryPal Podcast. This is Eric Widera. This is Alex Smith. And Alex, today we're going to be talking about how we limit potentially non-beneficial life-sustaining treatments. Who do we have Don to talk to us about this?
Today we are delighted to welcome Jason Batten, who is a cardiothoracic anesthesiologist, critical care doctor, and researcher at UCLA. Jason, welcome to the JerryPal podcast. Thanks so much for having us on. And we're delighted to welcome back Liz Zang, who is a hospitalist, sociologist, and ethicist at UCSF. Liz, welcome back to JerryPal.
Thank you. It's great to be here.
And happy to welcome back Teva Brender, who is a hospitalist and researcher at UCSF, who is going to join our Pulmonary Critical Care Fellowship here at UCSF next year. Teva, welcome back to Jerry Powell.
Thanks for having us. We got a a a great show. Liz and Jason published a paper in JAMA Network Open 2026 uh titled Decision-Making Approaches Used to Limit Potentially Non-Beneficial Life Prolonging Interventions. But before we jump into that article and all about the topic, Jason, do you have the song request? I
do. Um, we requested a wicked game by Chris Isaac. Chris Isaac.
Was that nineteen ninety? I'm trying to pinpoint the Think it's even older. Why'd you choose Wicked Game?
Well, first of all, it's super catchy and has been, you know, remixed and covered a hundred times. So it's a great song. But uh, you know, this paper is really focused on when patients and families want things that clinicians believe are bad for them. And I think for me that was the hook. Like wanting something that's bad for you is obviously covered a lot in music. And so this is a really great song in that theme. Love it.
tie in I think Chris Isaac's a San Francisco
musician.
Is that right?
The song was recorded. I just looked it up in San Francisco, nineteen eighty nine.
Eighty nine. Wow. Okay, here's a little bit.
The world was on fire, no one could save me but you. Strained what desire will make foolish people do. I never dreamed that I'd meet somebody like you. I never dreamed that I'd lose somebody like you. No I don't wanna fall in love, this world is won't break your heart. No I don't wanna fall in love, this world is good, won't break your heart with you.
Wonderful. That was great.
I love that song. Thank you, Jason. That was a lot of fun to sing.
Chris Isaac, born in Stockton, California. Okay. We're not talking about Chris Isaac here. We're talking about wicked games. Tava
Yeah, the wicked games that physicians play.
Why did you choose this topic? Just to give you background. Um, so we got an email from Teva suggesting that we actually talk about this topic in this paper. Teva, why did you why did you email us? I was inspired by your power.
Podcast on slow codes and the ethics of doing a slow code. And there were great arguments for and against. And I thought, hey, I know a couple people who've done some great research on this sort of thing and who have shown the different decision-making frameworks that clinicians use in the real world, not these highfalutin ethical principles. But how are clinicians doing this on the ground? And I thought Jason and Liz. This would be great to speak about this.
That's awesome. Do you see this like on the ground, Teva? These different decision making frameworks? Yeah, all the time. Like n obviously not a specific patient, but like some of the
dialysis, I think, where we know that we could do dialysis and you're not sure who the nephrologist on service is because you know that some would offer it to anybody and some would offer it would would actually have some limits to it.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the main focus of the episode on limiting non‑beneficial life‑sustaining treatments?
0:00–5:11
2
Why did the hosts choose “Wicked Game” and how does it relate to clinicians’ “wicked games”?
5:11–12:39
3
What motivated Jason, Liz, and Teva to study clinicians’ decision‑making frameworks?
12:39–19:56
4
How did the researchers collect and analyze ethnographic data across different hospital intensities?
19:56–25:58
5
What are the “alternative approaches” clinicians use when guidelines don’t fit?
25:58–32:01
6
How does moral distress arise from using these alternative approaches?
32:01–39:02
7
Should current critical‑care guidelines be revised in light of real‑world practices?
39:02–44:56
8
What practical steps can clinicians take after reading the study to improve end‑of‑life conversations?
44:56–49:12
Speakers
2 identifiedMore from GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
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