Chapter 1: What is Ibogaine and why is it gaining attention?
Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and this is Science Versus. The show that pits facts against fast-track drugs. Today, we are talking about Ibogaine. And before we dive in, this episode discusses substance abuse and also mentions interpersonal abuse. So please take care while you're listening, and we're going to put some resources in our show notes. Okay, so Ibogaine.
It's the latest psychedelic drug to hit the headlines.
Chapter 2: Can Ibogaine help with opioid addiction?
The Trump administration is very excited about it because people are saying that it could be groundbreaking for mental health and that Ibogaine could cure things like opioid addiction or PTSD. which got senior producer Meryl Horne, PhD, very curious about this. Hello, Meryl.
Hey, Wendy. Yeah, I wanted to see what this was all about. And so, yeah, I started looking into Ibogaine. Wendy, have you tried Ibogaine? I have not tried Ibogaine.
I mean, it's real... It's funny when a new psychedelic hits the headlines, right? We've had so many.
Chapter 3: How does Ibogaine affect people during a trip?
And Ibogaine kind of felt like it came out of nowhere.
That's what it felt like to me.
Chapter 4: How long do the benefits of Ibogaine last?
But then as soon as I started getting into it, I realized, oh, there's like a whole kind of underground community of people who are very into this drug. And so I immediately kind of wanted to talk to people who have actually tried this. Yeah. to see what it actually feels like. Great. So meet Retz Chapman.
Chapter 5: What are the potential risks associated with Ibogaine?
He's from Arkansas, and he's always been a daredevil.
I was always an adrenaline junkie my whole life. I really did anything with a board, snowboard, skateboard, longboard, wakeboard.
Chapter 6: Is there a safe dosage of Ibogaine for treatment?
Not chessboard, though.
He didn't mention. Okay. But yeah, so one day about 15 years ago, he was hillbombing in the Ozark Mountains, which is basically longboarding super fast down a steep hill, and he crashes. Oh, gosh.
Pretty sure like a rock or a pebble got into my ball bearing and just messed everything up, and I got all wobbly, and yeah, I just ate the pavement.
So after that crash, he gets taken to a hospital and eventually he needs surgery, like a spinal fusion. And the recovery from that was hard. He gets prescribed painkillers, but then he gets hooked on opioids. And then over the next several years, things kind of ratchet up. He eventually starts using fentanyl.
Once I was on that, I really couldn't do anything. I couldn't get out of bed without, you know, doing a little line.
And he said the withdrawal was super rough. There was physical stuff, puking, cold sweats.
But it was the psychological part that got me the most. Just, I was never content. Yeah, it was just always chasing something to get out of that negative feeling that I had.
It was about a year ago he told me he was in this really terrible place.
My life had completely become unmanageable. My family, they didn't trust me. My friends didn't want to hang out with me. I was hanging on to my relationship with my girlfriend by a thread. And it was at that point where I was like, all right, it's time to try something new.
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Chapter 7: What do studies say about the effectiveness of Ibogaine?
I mean, from what I had researched, it was almost like it was too good to be true.
So he decided to give it a try. He went to a clinic in Mexico outside Tijuana.
It overlooked the Pacific Ocean. There was a big statue of Jesus with his arms held out wide overlooking the ocean. So that was nice, reassuring.
Okay, so he gets taken to this room. He lays down and he's given these capsules with like white powder inside. And then he's given some eye shades and lays down. Down the gullet. Yeah. So here's what happened.
It was all kind of coming on and the first thing I noticed was a loud buzzing noise kind of like in my ears. I would see visions that didn't really make sense. Kind of just like dolphins walking on land and elephants with wings and just really off the wall things. It was very comparable to an intense dream.
Then things start getting a little more intense.
It was almost like like visions and downloads of my life going through my peripheral vision. And I could almost like drive the experience. Like I could kind of take control and I would see one vision. And when I was done with that, I would be like, okay, now let's take me to the next one. Like a movie reel of memories going through my vision.
And was it like a normal memory?
Oh, no. It was memories that I deeply tucked under the rug my whole life. And once I hit about the eight hour mark, That's when it really got intense and that's when I started vomiting and got real nauseous and was honestly wanting it to end.
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Chapter 8: What are the future prospects for Ibogaine research?
He's an associate professor at The Ohio State University. We've talked about psychedelics with Alan before. Nice to talk to you again. It's been like seven years.
Yeah. Gosh, has it been that long?
Yeah, because I interviewed you first in 2019.
And somehow that feels like 10,000 years ago. It does.
It really does.
Aw, Alan. We first talked to Alan about psilocybin. He's also done research on DMT. So I wanted to check his temperature about Ibogaine. If all psychedelics were superheroes, would Ibogaine be more like Captain America or someone kind of darker like Wolverine?
Certainly on the darker side, you know, these are the experiences that Ibogaine brings about in people are typically referred to and discussed as very challenging and difficult experiences. I almost, you know, in fact, when you started to bring up the metaphor of superhero, actually, the first person that came to my mind was Loki. Wait, I'm sorry.
I'm not a big enough nerd.
Who is that?
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