Chapter 1: What should I know about my rights when confronted by ICE?
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the find out podcast. We've got today. You've got Tim, me. You've got Rich. You've got Zach. You got Luke. And we have a special guest because we decided we kept talking about all this legal stuff that we should actually bring on somebody that knows something about the law. So we have a we have Eliza Orleans, who is a 15 year public defender in Manhattan.
And also was on not one, but two seasons of Survivor, season nine and season 16. So, Eliza, thank you for joining us.
Of course, I'm so happy to be here with you. I mean, this is always a fun time when we're together.
Yeah, we all know each other from the sort of, I'll say the creator, I can't say influencer, the creator world and everything. So it's nice to finally talk in public. So Eliza, so basically just confirm everything that ICE is doing is perfectly legal and we're all overreacting and we don't have to worry about this, correct?
Oh, yeah, sure.
Yeah. So walk us. Let's just talk about this. There's actually nine people, I believe, that ISIS now murdered. There's some some debate online because people have been focusing on Renee Good and and Alex Pretty.
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Chapter 2: How can I legally record law enforcement activities?
But there are actually seven others. And we want to make sure that that is clear, too, that we are not sort of, you know, whitewashing because the reality is the other seven are mostly people of color. So we want to make sure it's not two. It's nine.
Not to mention the folks who've been murdered in detention facilities.
Right, right. So trying to figure out the best way to start this off, but let's talk about the Alex Pretty one, for example, because we have the video footage of that. Again, we're going by video, so no one was there. So there's the caveat there. But from your perspective, did he do anything illegal?
No. I mean, and I think like my perspective is not even a legal one necessarily. I think, you know, this is something that we are so lucky that there are brave people like the woman who was in the pink jacket who recorded the entire thing very clearly. And actually, I just watched her interview this morning with Anderson Cooper on CNN where she is speaking out and saying, hey, I was scared.
I was terrified.
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Chapter 3: What actions can I take if I witness an ICE operation?
But I knew that it was really important for me to keep recording despite my fear, because this is how we get this information out there and make sure they can't just lie about what happened. And even with the clear video, of course, we see, you know, DHS, Kristi Noem, the entire administration trying to lie about what actually happened.
Yeah, I mean, they actually made up stuff, right? It came out yesterday that Stephen Miller apparently dictated Kristi Noem's original statements in which she referred to him as, I think, a domestic terrorist. Domestic terrorist and assassin. He was coming with a gun to an assassin, which then obviously turned out to not be true. He never pulled the gun.
In fact, ICE had taken the gun from him before they shot him, I believe, 10 times. Yeah, go ahead, Eliza, go ahead.
No, I mean, it's absolutely insane because I think what people don't realize is you have the absolute right to film law enforcement. It is your First Amendment right. Like, you cannot... I mean, you certainly can't be executed for it.
Even if you're committing a crime, allegedly, you can't be executed without due process and a trial and a conviction, and we don't even have the death penalty in most states. I mean, there's so... There's so few things that would require someone to be executed. But like these extrajudicial executions that they are committing out on the streets in public for not even committing a crime.
It's just it's beyond anything I can could possibly.
Well, and they throw out the term domestic terrorist as if that's like an exception. So since you work in the legal field, could you just give us a quick legal definition of a domestic terrorist?
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of ICE's administrative warrants?
Oh, my gosh, the legal definition of domestic terrorist. It's like there I mean, there is obviously like a complete like.
Sure.
Definition under the law as to what that means. I think like the you know, this is. I don't want to define it legally without having the legal definition in front of me because I'm worried that like I might misspeak and I don't want it to be incorrect in any way. But I do, you know, think that this it's just completely ridiculous that they would even remotely call. Right, right.
Alex, probably a domestic terrorist.
Ted, Ted, Ted Kaczynski was a domestic terrorist. Timothy McVeigh was a domestic terrorist, right? Doing action. And this is not legal, of course. And I know that's what you were, you know, you were trying to get the actual info, but for me as a non-lawyer, it's like, no, it's okay. Like also, yeah, you're, you're also not a constitutional scholar. So like, that's understandable.
You wouldn't have this all memorized, but you have to, you have to be inciting some sort of terror, right? Like there has to be, and all he was doing was standing there with a camera.
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Chapter 5: Can ICE agents legally lie to gain access to homes?
no gun, like a camera. And then actually, the other thing that is worth us mentioning, there was no protest there.
Right? Exactly. They created that. It was 9 a.m. There was no protest.
And I should apologize because that question was a little tongue-in-cheek because... There's no such thing as a domestic terrorist organization. There's a foreign terrorist organization, and that's a thing. They think that if they start calling us ISIS, basically, or Al-Qaeda, they tried to do it with Antifa, that they could create something from thin air.
Obviously, you can commit crimes that are... There's no way to circumvent the legal process and due process. So when I hear these dog whistle words, it's not really a dog whistle anymore, but when I hear these expressions like, oh, well, he's supporting domestic terrorism, it's like, what are you talking about? Free speech? That's what we're talking about?
Free speech is supporting domestic terrorism now? So anyway.
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Chapter 6: What should I do if ICE comes to my neighborhood?
Right. I mean, domestic terrorism, you know, it's like things that stem from like extremist ideological positions and are, you know, homegrown, not foreign, obviously. But the way that they're trying to classify people who are just standing up for their neighbors as domestic terrorists is ridiculous.
Yeah, I actually have a sort of in the weeds question is more about Rene Good's situation. And I was fighting with a Republican friend of mine about this and his. And this is a typical Republican thing when it comes to any sort of situation like this with any kind of law enforcement. he's like, well, she's impeding their ability to do their job.
And I'm sitting there going, if I were the attorney for, I'd be like, what is her, how is she impeding this? She's blocking half the road and then waving people by. Like, so when you get into a courtroom and obviously they would make that argument of she was impeding their investigation, would that actually hold up in court?
Or is that like a Fox News talking point where in reality that would just get shot down in court?
Well, so, I mean, listen, even if she were impeding, obviously the penalty for impeding, i.e., like, you know, there's a crime in New York that's called obstruction of governmental administration, OGA. It is a misdemeanor. it requires like the maximum punishment would be one year in jail.
But most people who I've ever represented over 15 years of practice who've been in charge with OGA have spent one night in jail for that crime. So OGA is something that they charge when they like don't like what you're doing. You know, it's like disorderly conduct or disorderly behavior.
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Chapter 7: How does fear affect our rights during ICE encounters?
These are not real crimes. These are crimes when you're like you've annoyed a police officer in some way. So if she were impeding, you know,
they're still they can't shoot her in the face like that is three times get summarily executed for that exactly i mean it more in the realm of like could like could what she did actually legally be defined as impeding because my argument to him was no because in reality there was literally no imposition created in any way shape or form cars could still get past her like to me it was like legally she was not impeding anything just on that point i mean that's because that's where they all stayed all these maybe traffic law that's about it
But also, that's a question of fact. That would be one for a jury. So let's say they did charge her with... you know, blocking traffic, obstruction, impeding, whatever, whatever the crime, the local crime in Minnesota, or if they charged her with that, that would still be something that the prosecution would have to present to a jury and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was impeding.
And her lawyer would have the opportunity to say, no, but look, here's video. They could get around her. She was not in fact impeding, but this becomes a question of fact. And, and there's no opportunity for a trial when they are shooting her in the Right. Fucking face. Yeah, that's right.
And then I assume because you were you've been a public defender in Manhattan for a long time, you've dealt with shooting cases and gun charges and things like that. So in this particular case with Renee Good, I mean, from us, the non lawyers, you know, you're looking at this and being like, where on earth was his life at risk?
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Chapter 8: What lessons can we learn from recent ICE operations?
And my understanding and correct me if I'm wrong is. For every shot you fire as a law enforcement officer, your life has to be at risk during all of it. Each shot. Is that correct?
Well, yes, but also, I mean, I don't think his life was ever at risk during a single one of those shots.
For the first shot to be illegal and then the second shot and the third shot and the fourth shot or whatever to be illegal.
Well, I guess so. But I mean, I just think it's like I almost think that we're validating something like by even entertaining that position is validating like that officer. There was no position ever for his life.
Right, right, right.
Ever. Well, this is one minute, not during the first shot, not during the third shot, not, you know, there are. Listen, in some states, there are things like, you know, we have we've we've probably you've probably heard discussions about things like stand your ground laws.
Castle doctrine.
Castle doctrine. Sure. But in New York and also in Minnesota, there's what's called the duty to retreat. We don't have you can't in New York. You cannot even if your life is at risk, you can't just kill someone who is approaching you. And that applies to everything.
because you have a duty to retreat so if there is space behind you if you can run you can't you know attack and and so you know this is something that's like not even it's like lethal force was never necessary right in the case of renee good you know no reasonable officer with the same facts would ever have been able to right to you know she was shot while she was driving away like this is right
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