Show notes
Welcome to Unmade’s second podcast edition.Today saw ViacomCBS share its plans for 2022, across Ten, Paramount Plus and the rest of its broadcast channels. There are several new formats, a big new soccer rights acquisition and new advertising formats.The company’s two local executive vice presidents, Bevereley McGarvey, and Jarrod Villani, both joined me for the converation. As well as talking about the slate, I asked Villani asked whether Ten might be open to acquiring either Prime or Southern Cross Austereo’s TV operation to round out its national offering.I’ll be back with more analysis in tomorrow morning’s Unmade newsletter when I offer my own thoughts on how Ten’s plans stack up.A transcript of the podcast appears below.TranscriptTim Burrowes:Welcome to the Unmade Podcast. I'm Tim Burrowes. This week Ten became the third of Australia's big three TV networks to unveil its plans for 2020. There's a significant investment in new formats. Some new commercial opportunities and a sports rights announcement too. Ten is part of ViacomCBS, and I'm delighted to say that the company's two bosses in Australia and New Zealand, Executive Vice Presidents, Bevereley McGarvey, and Jarrod Villani join me now.Beverley McGarvey:Hi Tim. Thanks for having us.Jarrod Villani:Thanks very much Tim.Tim Burrowes:So we'll come to the content in a moment and there is a lot to cover, but first I'm going to invite you to jump in, Jarrod. A lot of Unmade's audience comes from the media agency and marketing world so we'll talk about the commercial stuff right upfront. A couple of the new announcements for next year, Happy Hour, which is something that's going to be available on Tenplay, which effectively gives the audience an hour of ad free viewing, thanks to a sponsor, and dynamic e-trading placement. So let's talk about those two things to start off with.Jarrod Villani:Great, Tim, and thanks very much for having us. So we're really excited about the Happy Hour announcement. We think it gives great brand exclusivity to advertisers in a way that really cares for the viewer. We see that with the ongoing developments of paid streaming services, that viewers love that uninterrupted viewing experience. So we thought that we would trial Happy Hour to see what both the viewer resposne to it was, and indeed the advertisers. And it gives that brand exclusivity to advertisers, which is almost unobtainable anywhere else. So we think it provides both a great opportunity for viewers to experience something different on an ad supported platform-Tim Burrowes:... And the way I works, I take it, is that at the front of the hour, there's a message from the sponsor who gets credit for the experience they're about to have?Jarrod Villani:That's right, as well as overlays and other ways in which we can work in the messaging about that particular sponsor throughout that hour, without being as invasive as a 60 or 90 second ad pod.Tim Burrowes:And how do you price that for the sponsor?Jarrod Villani:Well, I think we'll continue to work through that with the agency, as we get into the detail of that, I think it's a new area. It's something that clearly will attract a premium because you do have that exclusive benefit over the course of the period. So we'll continue to work and Rod will work through that with the agencies-Tim Burrowes:... This is Rod Prosser who leads the sales?Jarrod Villani:Indeed, yes.Tim Burrowes:And tell me about the dynamic e-trading placement.Jarrod Villani:Well, I think it's all about offering that dynamic nature of the way in which agencies want to buy advertising space and indeed the ability to be more nimble as you see fluctuations in particularly in the BVOD space. So we think that... And as you can see across many organisations, the ability to adapt to pricing demands and indeed, if you have an advertiser who wants to adjust images or offers with short notice, it gives you that ability to do that.Tim Burrowes:So how does this stack up against… And this, this is obviously where everybody tends to use sort of slightly different terminologies. One of the things we've seen over the last few weeks is Nine and then Seven come to the market, talking about what they're now able to offer with... not trading, so much as automated buying, because humans are still having to negotiate the price, how does it stack up against that?Jarrod Villani:Well, this is all about, and I think this is a collaboration between us and an agency world, which is about what is it that works best for them? So we think about our products in an agency led environment because they're the ones... There's no good us designing something that we think is wonderful and whiz bang, and provides everything that we need. But of course it still requires a significant amount of manual work around from an agency perspective. So we think that our products are connected with the way in which agencies want to buy. I can't comment on that of other platforms, but Rod Prosser and the team to do a lot of work in understanding what eases the friction from the buyer's perspective and how we continue to reshape and model our platforms to make that an ease of trade.Tim Burrowes:Well, let's get into some of the formats. So Bev it really strikes me that... I think it's fair to say that of the three networks, TYen is investing the far the most this year in new formats. And they tend to be formats, which have at least been already tried in the US, or UK. So let's talk through a few of those. One of the ones that most intrigues me is The Bridge.Beverley McGarvey:Well, The Bridge is really interesting. It's actually for Paramount Plus and what we're interested in is having some high-end constructed reality on a streaming service. And as you know, lots of the other global streaming services have had a lot of success with high-end premium non-scripted content, as well as the premium scripted. So we just want to make sure that our local service is offering both scripted and non-scripted and The Bridge is intriguing and as you know, Australians love that non-scripted content and The Bridge is intriguing because it's quite authentic. The format beats that free to air audiences enjoy with things like Master Chef and Survivor, where there're tribal councils and mystery boxes and all that sort of thing. The Bridge is slightly more organic than that, you're kind of thrown in at the beginning with an end game, here's a group of people, here's a giant bucket of cash.Can you get it? And if you do get it, how do you split it? And it's really a social experiment in that how do those people work together and how do they split the money at the end? That's what's really intriguing because actions that you might take in Day Two will affect the outcome and day 10, so it's quite immersive. We will most likely drop it as a binge experience, and it's a much shorter run than the free to air and big constructed reality formats. And also we're shooting in Tasmania and as you know, not, not a great deal of content is shot in Tasmania and it's beautiful. And I think just having that different geographical look we see lots of beaches on Australian TV, we see lots of the Outback and beautiful red dirt. So I think just seeing that really interesting green environment. We have a bit of jungle in I'm a Celebrity, but I think it will look really different and I think that's really important. So we're excited about that.Tim Burrowes:With that one, as I was saying is it's a format which has already gone to air in the UK. I've not had time to view much beyond a few trailers, but I know reading one review, it made the point that casting is really important, which obviously always is for these things. I know one of the points made in at least one of the reviews in the U.K was they were quite an agreeable group of people. And perhaps as a result, it lacked some of that tension you sometimes see, but equally you don't just want, I know they won't be called a tribe, but a tribe of dickheads. So how are you coming at the casting question for something like The Bridge?Beverley McGarvey:The casting on any of those shows is absolutely critical and really what you're looking for is a mix of people that reflect an environment that you might actually find yourself in that you do find some people who are agreeable and some people that might add a bit more tension to proceedings. And also you want some surprises. So it's been very successful in both the U.K on the U.S and for example, in one of those series, they had someone who actually knew how to build a bridge who was actually a bridge builder in the army. But he was a gentle character and the others didn't quite ever find that out about him because they didn't ask him enough questions, and that's fascinating because they actually had an expert in their midst and didn't use it. So you're also looking for those surprising elements and I think the company that are making it, they cast Survivor, they cast MasterChef.They really know what they're doing. The great thing about Australian characters is that Australians are, we get phenomenal casting on some of our big shows. People really put their hand up for this sort of thing. So I think Australians really like to challenge themselves and they really enjoy this sort of content. So I think the casting will be, as it often is with us, you almost have too much choice. And the hard thing is just whittling it down to a group of people that make, as if you're casting a drama, you get a really great mix that make it a compelling watch.Tim Burrowes:Well, let's talk about a couple of other formats, which are quite well known in other markets. Would I Lie To You?, now again, this is one where quite a well-known cast in the U.K, and of course it's already available on Australian television. So I guess one of the daunting things for your cast, and I don't think you've said yet, who it'll be, is there's going to be a point of comparison for them?Beverley McGarvey:Absolutely, so I will tell you who it's going to be. So the point of comparison is something that we do think about, but I think that the point of comparison does two things. It makes you think, well, this is what works in the U.K and how do you take that and apply it to Australian audience, and what makes Australian audiences enjoy things differently? So we are going with Chrissy Swan in the hosting chair and Chrissy is an incredibly generous performer, and she's warm and funny. The other wonderful thing about Chrissy is that she gives other people space to be funny. And that's incredibly important in the show because there will be six big characters sitting in those other six chairs every week. And you need somebody who can not only wrangle that, but allow each person to find the flow and be themselves.The two team captains will be Chris Taylor from The Chaser, who as you know, is an incredibly smart, witty, fast comedian. And we need that, we need somebody who can be that fast. And then the other team captain will be Frank Woodley, also smart, funny man, but a very physical comedian, so very different. And we just think that balance of those three characters will be a really great foundation for the show. And then of course, every week you have four guests. Now, those four guests aren't necessarily always going to be comedians, although they often will be, they will be well-known Australians who are good at kind of telling a tall tale.So we think it's a really exciting show that it allows us to cast from a very broad group of people. And it won't be the same people that you used to see everywhere else, we need to get different people in those chairs. So we're really excited about that. A panel comedy, when it's done well, tends to go very well for us. I think there's an appetite for it and particularly the environment we find ourselves in at the minute, I think people really will embrace something funny.Tim Burrowes:And speaking of panel comedy, The Cheap Seats and Have You Been Paying Attention, are both coming back?Beverley McGarvey:Absolutely, they are both coming back and HYPBA, it’s been on for a really long time now, that team do a phenomenal job, they are consistently funny, week in, week out in every segment. They're great at using established talent at bringing through new talent and just bringing through that new talent has really... It’s what's led to The Cheap Seats. So The Cheap Seats, obviously it's a slightly younger cast, probably a slightly different pace, if you watch that show, they are fast. They're kind of in their mid twenties, those guys, and they just rip through the material, which is really interesting. And we have a really good core audience for that show and it took us a bit of time to build Hyper, like Cheap Seats has got a broader following in a much faster time frame. So we're really excited about that and those shows worked really well in a complimentary fashion. They both tend to start around that kind of Q2. So we just wanted something funny at the top of the year, which is why we've put, Would I Lie To You? in at the very front.Tim Burrowes:And I'll come on to some more new content in a moment. Jarrod, let me come back to you in a moment because it strikes me that as we're chatting - and although our audience can't, I can see you both. So on the left though, as I look, I've got Jarrod, on the right I've got Bev. Bev's job is to spend the money and Jarrod's job is to find it. So I'm guessing it's a bigger content budget this year. I'm wondering if that is indeed the case and if so, where you're finding the money from?Jarrod Villani:Well, I think if you, if you look at the way in which our organisation has evolved over the last 18 months, we're certainly spending more on content, there is no doubt about that. For the first time in 2022, we'll have all of our brands under one roof, obviously Network 10 and Tenplay, Nickelodeon, MTV, Nick Jr. Paramount Plus, and the enormous investments that we're making in that area. And what it does allow us to do is to look at the way in which our content lives across platforms and look at the levels of investment that we make and the way in which that can complement all of our services and the way in which we can cross promote that and engage with viewers in different ways on each of those platforms.And indeed, hopefully drive viewers across those platforms as well, which presents wonderful opportunities, obviously for our viewers, but also for advertisers as well. We think that if you have, if you have integration into one of our free to air programs and that, that also shows on Paramount Plus at some point in the future, then you will be tapping into a broader and additional audience also, without necessarily having to pay twice for that opportunity. So we think it presents great value to advertisers as well, but that has allowed us to invest even more strongly than what we have in the past, across our content slate.Tim Burrowes:Let's talk a bit more about that content. Bev a format which we've previously seen on screen, but at another network, over at Seven, was First Dates. So what is it you like about that format and what is it that you see in that format that Seven presumably didn't from the fact they let it go?Beverley McGarvey:I think these days shows have moved around a little bit and there's always a moment in time thing with certain formats. We've always loved First Dates. What I love about First Dates and what I think our audience will love about First Dates is the authenticity and humour that you find in a show like Gogglebox. These are real Australians having an experience that we're kind of voyeuristically watching. And I think it's sweet and it's different than the big dating shows. It's different than the Bachelor and The Masked (Singer) and those big shows, which have a place and are incredibly important, but this is very different.It is, as I say, more in that Gogglebox, Travel Guide space, they're regular people, they're people that you see in Coles and Woolies, they're those type of people. And I think those authentic characters are something that we don't have a great deal of, we tend to have the bigger constructor reality shows and people who apply for those shows are big personalities. These are more everyday Australians and I think there's room for that on our schedule. And I think our audience will really embrace it. And it's one hour, once a week, it's kind of down the back of the week and we think it will do a really good job in attracting an audience that will come to it for the humour and the sweetness, as opposed to the spectacle that we often offer on a Sunday, Monday, it's just about getting a bit of balance in the slate.Tim Burrowes:And a key thing, I suppose, for First Dates is the narrator voice. Have you made a decision on that yet?Beverley McGarvey:No, we haven't gotten that far yet. We're actually, we're casting at the minute and it will be for Q1. So we're just looking at those sorts of things right now, but it's a really good point, it's kind of critical.Tim Burrowes:Let's talk about another one, which feels like a potentially, I guess, an expensive one because it takes place out in the world, Hunted.Beverley McGarvey:So Hunted is really interesting, I think from an audience point of view, it's really exciting. And also from an industry professional point of view, it's really exciting. So Hunted is kind of, it's a big constructed reality show. And the interesting thing for us is it's an urban city scape and you know, we've talked about this, we do jungles, we do out in the Outback we do lots of other things, but in terms of shooting in an urban cityscape, it tends to be the domain of Australian drama that does that. So Hunted will be shot in Melbourne, hopefully in a bustling busy city. And the idea is you start with a group of people, they literally lose their phones, lose their credit cards, lose their money and it is 3, 2, 1 go. And basically a team of people chase you in what I ambitiously say, a Bourne Identity style and the last person caught basically wins money, it's literally, can you evade capture?So where the production works is there's a production team with the hunted and there's a production team with the hunters, and they don't overlap so that the production is authentic in terms of the production not knowing what's going on. And then there's a central team that are watching both. And they can get out of the city a little bit, it's been very successful all over Europe, in the U.K and in markets like Italy. And it's a really exciting, fast paced format and again, attracts a very different type of cast. Australians, as I said are really, they're competitive and I think we're casting it at the minute and then it will get a great cast and also a different looking show and a different dynamic. And also a lot of constructed reality shows are in a bubbled environment so you're in the Bachelor mansion, you're in the MasterChef kitchen, this is out in the world, so it feels a bit different to some of our other shows. So we're really excited about that.Tim Burrowes:And while we're talking about the big formats, Survivor comes back again. Now one of the great things for me about Paramount launching as a service here was having availability of all the U.S Survivor episodes. So I haven't yet worked my way through all 40 seasons, so I don't know if this is based on a U.S season gone by, but there's a twist this year?Beverley McGarvey:It absolutely is based on a U.S Season gone by. And what we tend to do is we look at some of the thematic Survivor versions that play in other markets, and then kind of adapt them for Australia so that it really works for us like Champions versus Contenders was quite original to Australia, although it was loosely based on something else. So what we're doing is Blood versus Water and effectively what that means is you play with someone you love for a certain amount of time.And Survivor's really interesting because at the end you are the sole survivor. So adding the dynamic of... Some people are very ruthless in Survivor, which we love. If your mother is with you, the question is, is blood thicker than water? So we're filming at the minute. It's really, really interesting. That dynamic really brings out interesting character traits in people. And Survivor really is... Survivor fans are super committed to it and they love those extra layers of complexity and interest. So it's a really interesting theme and we've also got fantastic casting. Most of the cast are new, we do have some favourites coming back, but they're not playing alone, they're playing with a sister or a mother. So again, it's not like... You've seen them before, but you're seeing them in a different way now cause everybody behaves differently when their mother’s around, I think, so it's a really good theme this year.Tim Burrowes:And Survivor obviously has become a really reliable partner schedule now, would you do two series in a year, would you contemplate that?Beverley McGarvey:We have done in the past. We actually nearly did two cycles last year, but COVID kind of scuppered that idea. It's an incredible investment, a show like Survivor and it's very successful. I think probably the audience appetite for it is maintained when we do one cycle a year, if there was ever a reason to do a second one, we would never say never. We also do slightly more hours than some of the international versions. So our audience already get a decent amount of Survivor. So possibly one day, certainly not next year.Tim Burrowes:Jarrod, where are we now, in October, three months or so into is the switch of affiliations from the previous connection with WIN Corporation over to Southern Cross Austereo. How has that gone so far? Because I guess you were pretty much thrown in the deep end to arrive and then make that negotiation nearly straight away?Jarrod Villani:It’s going well, we're very fortunate as we were with WIN, to have terrific partners and we still have a very substantial relationship with WIN in Northern New South Wales. So that continues to go very well and Southern Cross in most other major markets. And of course, as the affiliate landscape works in Australia, a smattering of other in smaller markets. So we're very fortunate, it's going quite well with Southern Cross. We have really strong engagement with them. Their feedback from their clients has been really strong about the performance of the content and the engagement from advertisers. So we're really happy with the way in which that has played out. And indeed, we're very happy with the way in which our relationship continues to work with WIN in certain markets also.Tim Burrowes:And obviously the new arrangement was only a two-year deal, which is quite short for affiliate arrangements. Was that your preference, or would you have preferred a longer arrangement?Jarrod Villani:We're in a world where it's moving quite fast at the moment. And we had a really great conversation with Southern Cross about what our desires were, and it was a mutual agreement between the parties that we would enter into a two year agreement and see where the world was in a couple of years’ time. So we're both very comfortable with that, and we don't really think it makes any difference in terms of the continuity of services or indeed our relationship.Tim Burrowes:And as you say, in a little bit under two years’ time, both this arrangement, but also Prime’s arrangement with Seven comes up. Have you had any conversations with Prime yet?Jarrod Villani:Well, other than the ones that, as I say in certain markets, that we do engage with them on already, as a joint venture partner in some of those, but look, I think that we'll cross all those bridges when we come to them in a couple of years’ time.Tim Burrowes:And before we go back to the content, again, a final question on the affiliate arrangement. We thought a while back that Seven and Prime was going to be, were going to come together and be the first national offering. Is there any further appetites for investment for you to pick up, and I guess it would probably be Prime, but it might be Southern Cross Austereo. Is there a way the numbers would actually stack up to become a national offering do you think?Jarrod Villani:That has to work for both parties, obviously. So I think that like all investment activity, whether you're talking about ViacomCBS, or seven or Nine or whoever you might be talking about at any point in time, we work through the process of saying, does this make sense? Does this work for both parties? And there can only ever be an agreement if it does work for both parties. So, I view it like all commercial agreements. You never say never, you see what unfolds, you see what can work for each of the parties and you make those decisions as you go.Tim Burrowes:So it sounds like at least sort of with ViacomCBS internationally, it's not as if they've said rule out spending money on that sort of potential acquisition. If you can make it stack up, then they might back you on that case?Jarrod Villani:We have terrific support, full-stop, internationally for our investments in Australia, be they in content or further acquisitions or whatever it might be. So we've got really strong engagement with our international colleagues and it is set us up in a really good place in Australia and New Zealand.Tim Burrowes:Well, let's talk a bit about sport, which we haven't yet today. Bev, my accent gives me away as a person from the U.K where the FA Cup is a big deal. So this is the... I suppose you could think of it as a, the main league is the EPL in the U.K, and then the FA cup is the knockout format. And they're both pretty much as meaningful as each other, really in terms of U.K sport. So you're now going to have some rights to show the FA cup, how are you going to make that work within the schedule?Beverley McGarvey:So the FA Cup will... A lot of the games will, all of the games will be on Paramount Plus, and then some of the games will play on the linear services, but really we're just wanting to round out our football offering. So as you know we have the FA with Socceroos, Matildas and the A-Leagues. So we were really just looking for other events to kind of round that out. And as you say, it is such a big deal in the U.K, there's a lot of expats here.And even if you're not from that part of the world, there's a lot of players that you'd know because a lot of big names play, in the British Leagues, so you know who they are. So we're really excited about that, and it really just enhances our football offering for fans. And it will be mainly on Paramount Plus, but some of it will sit on the linear services, so that's how we see it working really and we're pretty excited about it though. Because as you say it’s a knockout and also in a knockout interesting things can happen, you never really know where it's going to end. So I think that keeps it really exciting right to the end of the season.Tim Burrowes:And you say, you've got all of the games. So obviously you... With the knockout thing, it starts off with a lot of games per round. Then it presumably hits that point where you might have sort of eight or four games per round going on. So you'll presumably actually be streaming multiple games at the same time?Beverley McGarvey:Yeah, we do have the capacity to do that and we will be streaming multiple games at the same time across the board, that also sometimes happens with the local leagues as well. So that's kind of the beauty of having, as Jarrod has mentioned, just having a full suite of distribution mechanisms so that we can do multiple things at the same time. I think the interesting thing is just about making it clear about what's on when and what we have where and making the curation easy for the audience. So we have the Matildas on Ten this Saturday night and we've a couple of like FA games. And then we move into the APL, which will be exclusive mainly on Paramount Plus coming into November.Tim Burrowes:Now Jarrod one of the tap dances of a commercial network, particularly with streaming is the viewers are already paying for the products so they don't necessarily want to see much advertising at all, but equally this is a commercial world and one of the ways that pays for the content is the ads. How do you think about that when it comes to the advertising around football or soccer, I suppose we should call it in here in Australia?Jarrod Villani:Yeah. Tim, there's obviously lots of different models playing out across the world at the moment, in relation to our football, which will be available on Paramount Plus, it will be supported by a light ad load. We think it gives great continuity to advertisers across both the free to air product and the Paramount Plus product to ensure that if you are part of football in this country, that you are part of the viewer experience also, and people really can see that brand association, irrespective of which platform. Now we are going to be very conscious of the load that exists on Paramount Plus, but we think we can do that in a respectful and non-intrusive manner.Tim Burrowes:And sticking with Paramount Plus, a couple of other formats - Couples Therapy and the return of Five Bedrooms?Beverley McGarvey:Yeah. So Five Bedrooms has been phenomenally successful for Paramount Plus and for Ten. So series three will drop very, very, very early next year, which we're really excited about, we're filming at the minute. It's a really strong series, really good writing, fantastic talent. And then we have a show called Couples Therapy and Couples Therapy will be the first local non-scripted content to drop on the service. And again, we're making it at the minute. It plays on HBO Max in the U.S and it's a very different type of show. It is not a show that you would see sitting on Linear. It's a very no producer intervention type show. So you see two people talking to your therapist about their relationship and there are no format beats. There is no, at the end of the series, two people are going to stay together. And two people are going to split up. You watch the kind of how their relationship grows or doesn't across the period of their conversations with the therapist.And at the end of the series, you find out where they are at that moment in time. It's not like a hard closed ending. It's really interesting conversations and the way the show works. If you're in the show as one of the couples, you don't see producers, you don't see camera men, you only see your therapist, it's kind of shot with two-way mirrors etc, so you're really honest. So I think it's a really, and again, it's been very successful in other markets because I think people are curious and they like to see what's happening in other people's lives. So we're really excited to see how that goes and it's one of those things that had we not had Paramount Plus we wouldn't be able to do that type of show because it will appeal to a very bespoke market. So just having that extra platform gives us more flexibility in our commissioning and kind of gives us more scale in our buying.Tim Burrowes:So Jarrod, this will be your first upfronts since joining Ten, I found myself thinking of James Warburton's return to Seven, where he used his first upfronts to tell his audience that what had come before was not good enough. Now I'm not going to ask you to do that, but I do wonder if you could wave a magic wand and change just one decision by any predecessor over the last 15 years, what would it be?Jarrod Villani:Tim I think that whenever we're reflecting on any decision made in business, in life, unless you know, all of the factors at that point in time, that those people have to consider at that point in time, you knew the dynamics of what was playing out the condition of a balance sheet or P and L or what was the strategic objectives at that point in time, then you can never look back. And sometimes even on your own decisions and say whether they are good or bad ones.And I think that's true of this situation, and Bev and I've spent... We've been lucky enough to work together on and off over the last four or five years, we've got a great working relationship. And we're very much about looking forward and about the organisation, not just the network, it's much bigger than that. The networks are a very important part of what we do, but the organisation as a whole and the way in which we build out ViacomCBS in Australia, and the position that we'll take in the market, we're really excited about making those decisions together and ensuring that we get those right based on the information that we have to hand at any given point in time.Tim Burrowes:Do you ever look back there and think ‘Oh, I wonder how things would be if Lachlan Murdoch had fought a bit harder to keep some AFL’ for instance?Jarrod Villani:Perhaps, but you're probably best asking Lachlan that.Tim Burrowes:Hey, it might just be worth painting a bit of a picture. And this might be one of the final questions of how the... I'm particularly interested for Ten, how the schedule will sort of unfold over the coming year. Where you actually see yourself placing the main shows throughout 2022.Beverley McGarvey:Well, I think for many years now, we've been very transparent about what our schedule looks like and that we want it to be consistent. So we're quite comfortable to talk about what the year looks like. It's very, very set for the first half, we do I'm A Celebrity on January 3. We talk about that quite publicly and tend to put January 3 on billboards all over the country and then we go into Survivor. We didn't have Survivor in Q1 this year only because we couldn't get it made in time because of the lockdown situation last year but luckily this year we've managed to fix that. So we go I'm A Celebrity, Survivor, some other enhancements in Q1, like First Dates and Would I Lie To You? as we've talked about and then we go into MasterChef and really that takes us through the first half of the year.And we're very happy to be open about that. We think the market needs to know that we have a consistent schedule, what the content is, what the integration opportunities are. And then in the back half of the year, we tend to have things like Bachelor and some other big kind of more stunty shows, Hunted will play on that second half. So we tend to be quite open about it because we think it works for us to be upfront about what we're doing. And I think these days, your clients really want to know in advance. You can't kind of be hiding things and stuffing around and you need to be quite honest about where your shows are going to land. I think it works. It's better for our sales team to have that visibilityTim Burrowes:Well, Upfronts is always a busy week. So I will let you both go Beverly McGarvey and Jarrod Villani. Thank you very much.Beverley McGarvey:Thank you so much.Jarrod Villani:Thanks so much for having us Tim. Thank youTim Burrowes:The Unmade Podcast is produced with the enthusiastic support of Abe's Audio, more soon. I'm Tim Burrowes.Toodle pip. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unmade.substack.com