Chapter 1: Why do men struggle to express their feelings?
For many years, men have been told to stay strong, keep it in and not show weakness. And now we're asking them to open up and wondering why they don't. Today, myself, Jake Humphrey from High Performance and Matt Willis from On The Mend are here to have the conversations a lot of men still aren't having. What are you actually feeling? Why is it so hard to say it out loud?
And how do we start to change that? This is part of the Say It Louder initiative, a partnership with BetterHelp across the next few months, bringing these conversations to light and making a real, measurable difference to men's mental health, hopefully. Let's get straight into it. Right, shall we break the ice? Are either of you currently in therapy?
Do you know what? I'm not right now. I have been recently, but I'm not at the moment. But I've been in therapy a lot in my life. But I'm not right now at this moment. Right.
similar to you, Matt, I've, I've kind of had periods of my life where I've been in therapy, you know, like once a week for an hour every week. Um, and, uh, I'm not right now, although I still have contact with my therapist.
Uh, there are times in my life where I feel like I need it more than other times, but also I'm a massive believer in having it when you, when you're not in crisis, when like, when you don't feel you need it, like a kind of maintenance act, almost. I actually quite like the sitting with him, in this case, and just talking completely openly about yourself for a full hour. It's quite refreshing.
My wife would say that I'm selfish anyway, but it's quite hard, isn't it?
You've never had your dad on someone who wants to talk about himself for an hour, have you?
No, definitely not. Have you not?
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Chapter 2: What personal experiences shaped the hosts' views on therapy?
Okay, good. There's obviously been great progress made in recent years. Your therapist has done a great job on you. Thank you, Jake. Give me his number. I don't know. It is interesting, isn't it? If something is bothering you or you want a clear path through something, to sit even with a good friend and talk about yourself for a full hour is quite indulgent. It feels quite self-indulgent.
Whereas in therapy, obviously, that's the point of it.
I think also the last time I went to therapy, I hadn't had therapy for a couple of years and I went there With nothing, really. I kind of didn't go there for a specific reason or anything. I kind of went there and went, everything's going pretty well, but I feel a little bit kind of flat. I should feel better about my life. Do you know what I mean? It was like, why? Explain, break that down.
It was kind of quite a weird time to go. And when I told people about that, they were quite surprised. They were like, oh, you're killing it. Everything's going good. I was like, yeah, but, you know, that's probably a good time to go and check yourself a little bit. Would you ever feel embarrassed about telling someone that you're in therapy?
Chapter 3: How does therapy serve as a performance tool?
I wouldn't. No, that's just me. How do I put this? I wouldn't feel kind of embarrassed by much, to be honest. And I think these things are personal, but if you want to share it with your friends or your family... the very definition of a good friend or family member should be very supportive of that. I don't think therapy is anything to be ashamed about at all.
In fact, I would put therapy in a similar category to running, lifting weights, looking after yourself. You know, it's a workout for the mind. So, you know, me saying to my wife even, oh, you know, I'm going to be home a bit late. I'm having an hour of therapy after work. She would only ever see that as a positive thing, even if life was, in inverted commas, great.
I mean, there's been times in my life where I've... I think when I first started kind of like... exploring this kind of stuff, it did feel like an alien world to me. And it felt like something that you don't really tell anyone about, that you keep to yourself, you know, because people might think you're, you know, crazy or something, you know.
So I was like, don't tell anyone, you know, keep this to yourself. But I don't feel like that anymore.
I think that I think there are some people that I might be anxious about or nervous to tell them I'm in therapy.
Yeah.
I can't think of who those people are, but I definitely, I think what bothers me is if you say, oh, yeah, I'm in therapy at the moment, what's the follow-up question going to be? Oh, why? Or like, are you okay?
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Chapter 4: What are the barriers preventing men from opening up?
Or can we do anything to help? And that's what I don't really want. Do you know what I mean? So I wouldn't mind saying, oh yeah, I'm seeing someone at the moment because I'm struggling a bit. But then it's all the follow-up stuff.
So you don't want the sympathy?
Not really. That's why you go to a therapist for the follow-up questions. Yeah, exactly.
What about, I mean, obviously we're talking about therapists and you go in there and you basically tell them everything. Are there times in your life where, and it might even be now, where you don't tell people everything that's going on and you restrict the information that you share?
I think there has been times in my life where I've done that. I've not wanted to worry people. There's something about that. I think this is a lot of problem with...
men right now is that i feel like it's like um we kind of got conditioned in a way you know like from early on to kind of keep it in do you mean like to not show any weakness to kind of like keep calm carry on you know just get on with it you know that kind of stuff which um which i definitely felt um i felt like i don't know it was a sign of weakness to show that i was struggling yeah
Yeah, I think as well, it depends on the behavior, really. Lots of the time that I have sought therapy has been around, you know, abusing alcohol or certain behaviors that I would like to change. So... Sharing that information with people freely can feel a bit destructive and it can come with a sense of shame. You know, you don't necessarily want to be
calling people who you love or meeting people you love and going, oh, I'm off to see a therapist just because I can't control my drinking. It's almost embarrassing. Well, it certainly felt like there was shame attached to it for me. I think that therapy, to build on your point from the stigma of therapy, I like to look at it as...
a performance tool instead of therapy, like something that I need because I need to fix something in my life. It's kind of, how can I improve?
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Chapter 5: How can men approach mental health conversations with their families?
How can I be better? Would it be beneficial to have an hour with this person? See it kind of like, I don't know, I'm not a huge fan of the term life coaching because the people giving it haven't lived a full life yet. So it's hard to coach somebody through life, particularly as, you know, everyone's experiences in life are different. But, you know, I like to see therapy as a, how can I be better?
than I currently am and can this conversation help me achieve that, you know, instead of I'm a bit broken, how do I fix myself? Yeah. Which of course is, you know, it's the same thing, a different way of looking at it.
Yeah.
I think that's a barrier for young men in particular as well at the moment, you know, like this whole... I probably would be interested in talking to a therapist, but I don't want my friends and family to know. And I don't want people to think that there's something wrong with me. And, you know, I'm a bit confused.
And, you know, I think society expects one thing of me, but I don't feel that I can fulfill that. And so, you know, I think it's quite difficult in many cases to be a young man nowadays. It's almost like the role of a man has changed. And I think that people are struggling to keep up with it.
I think that's really interesting because I think our parents probably and our grandparents definitely, the role of a man was clear then, wasn't it? You would be the breadwinner, you would go out, you would graft, you would come home and there's the family.
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Chapter 6: What misconceptions exist about therapy?
And our grandparents would expect that the family was being run while they're out working. It's so different for us now. It's like, what are we? Do we still do that? Do we be emotional? Do we bottle it all up? Do we share and tell the world exactly how we're feeling? I don't know what a man looks like these days.
I think the thing about sharing is interesting because you guys have a slightly different experience to me that Emma works and Vogue works. My wife Harriet doesn't. I mean, she does because she's at home with the kids, but she doesn't have a job that she goes to. So actually, it's very interesting when it comes to do you tell everyone everything?
In the world that we're in, where I work in London and Harriet's in Norwich where we live looking after the kids, there's loads of stuff she does that I don't even know about, right? You know, like get Seb's hockey stuff. I wouldn't know where to begin to find that stuff. Then there's a load of things that I do that Harriet wouldn't get involved in or know about.
And actually that does create a really interesting dynamic in a relationship where something happens and your partner goes, why are you not telling me everything?
Right?
And actually, you can't tell everyone everything. And also, I think that I see my responsibility as going out, coming to work, creating high performance, building a few other businesses, and then making sure there's enough money that the mortgage gets paid and everything happens.
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Chapter 7: How do the hosts manage their mental health?
And if there's a month where things are a bit tight or I have to have a conversation with Harriet about money, there is like a definite shame or embarrassment linked to that. where she's done her side of the bargain, everything at home is rocking and rolling, and I've had a month where cash flow's been challenging in the business or something, and it's like, oh!
That is a really weird, weird sort of tightrope, I think, that I dread sometimes.
Yeah. So do you find talking to someone about that kind of stuff, about the way you feel about that, helpful?
Yeah, I do. I think I like to... Because actually, we live in this world where we think that everything is flowing and perfect for other people. And it's when you talk to someone else that you would put either as an equal or above you in the business world or something. And they go, oh, no, this is like how it is. It's a constant challenge. You know, trying to run a business...
with 30 people or 100 people, it's not easy. Sometimes I think it's easy with 10,000 people because the business is so big. You know everything's going to be okay. Small businesses are hard. That is a big stress point for me, trying to be a business person. I'm not employed, right? By anyone. Everything I do, is my own. The buck falls with you. On everything.
There's not a single thing that I do now where I'm employed. And that's hard. Basically, I'm unemployed and unemployable. And therefore, it all rests on my shoulders. I actually preferred it when I used to get a salary from BT Sport. I was like, ah, talk about football and get paid. Lovely. Well, look, we've got a bunch of questions in front of us. So we haven't seen them.
We don't know what they're going to be. And I guess we just take it in terms to pick them up. And speak, so who wants to go first? I think Matt.
Matt?
Me? Who's going first? Matt, Matt. Okay, here we go.
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Chapter 8: What insights do the hosts share about masculinity and vulnerability?
I'll go first. Right. Question one, the double standard. Who in your life growing up actually showed you how to deal with something hard? Who in your life growing up showed you how to deal with something hard?
That's interesting, isn't it?
Yeah, so like a role model or something, I suppose, or someone that you were... For mine, it was my parents, and the answer was always the same thing.
Hard work.
Yeah, yeah.
So my... Manners. We came from a house of hard work, basically. So I remember, and you know these things happen when you don't even realise it as a kid. My dad lost his job in about...
1986 1987 we had three kids we had no money really we lived in peterborough clothes came from jumble sales holidays if we had one once a year it would just drive we'd drive a car to a campsite and camp but you know when you don't know anything different you don't know that there's not much money floating around so it's just your life then i remember my dad was suddenly away from us all the time behind this locked door in the house which was his study
And again, you don't relate to what's happening, but now I know he was doing an MA, so he basically went back to college, went back to uni, whilst working, whilst having three kids, whilst having no money, because he'd lost his job, and he was trying to educate himself to get a better job.
And so he would still at this time be working, so he'd go to work all day, come home, do his degree all evening. And I think he went for like nine or ten jobs and didn't get any of them. And again, you don't understand that stress. And then as we got older, it was always all about hard work. If ever there was a challenge in the house, we sort of lent into hard work.
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