Ayesha Roscoe

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and you're listening to the Sunday Story from Up First. So there are some things in this world that I just have a hard time getting my head around. And, you know, I've got to say one of them is cryptocurrency. And the longer it's around, the weirder and more complicated it seems to get. It's all a bit daunting to me.

This meme is so fire, it's going to burn the internet down.

Justine Yan produced this episode of The Sunday Story. The original Planet Money episode was produced by Willa Rubin and edited by Jess Jang with help from Keith Romer. fact-checking by Sierra Juarez, and engineering by Neil Rauch. The Sunday Story team also includes Andrew Mambo, Jennifer Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

Up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

But for some of my colleagues, explaining new trends in the economy is what they do. A few months ago, Planet Money host Alexi Horowitz-Gazi came across a viral video that clarified something about the explosion of a type of cryptocurrency called meme coins. These are highly valuable and highly volatile tradable currencies that have cropped up on the Internet over the past decade.

Today on the Sunday Story, Planet Money host Alexi Horowitz-Gazi and freelance reporter Nick Nevis explain just how we got here. Stay with us.

We're back with the Sunday story. Today, a deep dive into meme coins from our colleagues over at Planet Money. Here's NPR's Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi with freelance reporter Nick Nevis.

And anyone can make one. Here's Alexi talking about the video he saw and the story of one particular meme coin.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and you're listening to the Sunday Story from Up First.

So listeners, it's me again. Remember that walk I told you to take? Where did you go? This is our last episode of the year and we wanted to step into the new year with a question for you all. What's a special place in your life? One that you visit weekly or even daily when you feel depleted, it fills you up. It can be anywhere, your community center, your gym, a weekly singing class.

And we have gotten to know our neighbors very well between birthday parties and parties. And christenings and, you know, helping each other when we get stuck in the snow and and just keeping an eye on each other's kids and dogs. Yeah, that's Teddy, who's always in the window of my other next door neighbor. And Miss Venetta, she's like the heartbeat of this neighborhood for me.

It might even be a very special aisle at your local grocery store. What is that place in your community that lifts you up? If you have a place like this, we want to know about it. You can send a two- to three-minute voice memo to us at upfirstsunday at npr.org. You can even include some sounds from that space. Remember, this is radio, so we love to hear good sounds.

Tell us your name and where you're speaking to us from, and we might share it in an episode this coming year. Thank you for spending your Sundays with us. Till next year, I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan. Gilly Moon mastered the episode.

The Code Switch episode was produced by Xavier Lopez, Jasmine Garst, Margaret Serino, and Christina Carla. It was edited by Courtney Stein and Leah Dinella. It was mastered by James Willits. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Jenny Schmidt, and Liana Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week.

Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. And Happy New Year!

her place is surrounded by this nice little porch. And inside, it's always kind of dimly lit. She got some outlets she got to work on. But it's a second home for my kids if they want to show her something or... Just say, hey, they'll run down the pavement between our front door and hers. If they lose a tooth, she'll have some money for them.

Inside her place, the news is always on, and she's always got a snack in the kitchen, maybe some pumpkin seeds for Annalise or some toast for Gabrielle or hot dogs for Reggie. And if I ever need somebody... And boy, have I needed somebody at times. She's been there. Her home has been our safe space. And it's because of that, it's so hard to imagine living anywhere else.

Earlier this year, NPR's immigration reporter Jasmine Garst and producer Xavier Lopez spent a day in one of their favorite places in the world, a park in Queens, New York. It's called Flushing Meadows Park.

But I do plan on starting a fresh chapter soon. We're planning on moving in the new year. But wherever I go, I know I don't ever want to be too far from Miss Venetta. So we can stop by and visit. On today's episode of the Sunday Story, in the spirit of places that feel like home, we're going to play you a part of an episode that originally ran on NPR's Code Switch podcast.

It's a portrait of a community, a small slice of everyday life for the people who call Queens home. And while you listen, maybe go take a walk to one of your places and stay until the end because I have a little request for you as we go into the new year. An invitation to send in a sort of audio postcard from a place that you call your own. All that after the break.

I also live in Queens. Queens has been called the most diverse urban place on the planet. Almost half of its population is made up of immigrants from over 120 countries. And Flushing Meadows Park is a microcosm of immigrant life.

It's also, for Xavier and Jasmine, kind of like their backyard, where they can go anytime they need to recharge and remember what really matters, to be in community. For me, that place is actually a house. Two doors down from my house. It's the home of my dear friend and neighbor, Miss Venetta. I've lived in my neighborhood for 15 years now. All my kids were born here.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is the Sunday Story from Up First. And today, we've got a big one. Recently, NPR reporter Jenna McLaughlin broke open a huge story about a whistleblower from inside the federal government. His name is Daniel Barulis, and for him, it all started on a Friday at the end of February.

But has NPR seen evidence of this? You know, is he just making allegations or have people confirmed like what he says he saw?

So how much data are we talking about? Like, is it every file that the NLRB got? So it's not everything.

When he realized this data was taken, what did Barulas do next?

And also what that means for the sensitive data of millions of Americans. Jenna McLaughlin has covered cybersecurity for over a decade. Stephen Fowler is also with us. He's been focusing on the big picture of the federal government's restructuring under President Trump. Jenna and Stephen, thanks so much for being here.

That's really scary. I mean, the idea of it seems like someone's watching him. Does he know or have any idea who left that letter?

When we come back from the break, Jenna and Steven consider what else could be motivating Doge to access all this data.

We're back with the Sunday story from Up First. We're talking with reporters Jenna McLaughlin and Stephen Fowler about a huge story that they've broken wide open after talking to a whistleblower at the National Labor Relations Board, or NLRB. So what are the consequences of the access that Doge has gained to these systems? What kind of vulnerabilities has Doge left in its wake?

Thanks for having us. So tell me a bit about this particular whistleblower at the NLRB. Like, who is he?

Stephen, you mentioned earlier that there's no reason Doge needs to access the data at the NLRB for their stated mission, which is to deal with waste, fraud, and abuse. So why else might they want to collect it?

So, Stephen, from what you're saying, it's like this story is likely bigger than just the NLRB. Since Doge has gained access to several agencies at this point, how have cybersecurity experts at other agencies responded?

That's a lot of red flags. How has the administration reacted?

So what else has happened since you broke the story last week?

With all of this, I'm still thinking about the whistleblower Berulis and, you know, the picture of him walking his dog and all of that. Across administrations, we have seen that being a whistleblower can be dangerous. Is Berulis still at the NLRB now? No.

Stephen, you mentioned that you and Jenna are part of a team investigating the restructuring of America's federal government. What's your team doing now and how are you continuing to uncover Doja's activities?

So if somebody is listening and they want to share some important information with you, where can they reach either of you?

Jenna and Stephen, thank you so much for all of this incredible reporting on the changes happening in our government.

Thanks for having us. That's NPR's Jenna McLaughlin and Stephen Fowler. You can find more details of their reporting on the NLRB at NPR.org. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Kim Naderfane-Petersa and Andrew Mambo. It was edited by Liana Simstrom, Irene Noguchi, and Brett Neely. The mix engineer for this episode was Jimmy Keeley.

The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan and Jenny Schmidt. We always love hearing from you, so feel free to reach out to us at thesundaystoryatnpr.org. I'm Ayesha Roscoe. Up First is back in your feed tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

So Daniel Baroulis has been working in cybersecurity for a long time. Walk me through what he saw when the Doge team accessed the NLRB systems.

How unusual is that request not to log? Like, does that happen often, or are there special situations where they don't log?

On Monday, he sees a black SUV with a police escort pull into the parking garage at their office in D.C. Daniel didn't speak to anyone in the SUV, but he assumes it was members of the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOJ. He'd been hearing about DOJ showing up with police escorts around town, and based on that call with his boss, he was expecting them to arrive that day.

Stephen, kind of help us zoom out a bit and put all of this into context. How is this different from how the federal government has historically operated?

And so Doge is now inside the NLRB working without much oversight. What happens next?

What is this file? Like, what is he looking at?

and access to the cloud they got. This is Berulis' whole job, to guard the sensitive data in the cloud of his agency. He works at the National Labor Relations Board, or NLRB, which is a small, independent federal agency that enforces the law to protect people from unfair labor practices, like when a corporation wants to illegally punish workers for organizing a union.

So help me understand what's really at stake here. Like, what really could come out of this data?

Steven, you've been covering Doge at large. Like, how does this complaint from this whistleblower fit into the larger story of what Doge as advisors are doing across the federal government?

When we come back, the whistleblower himself becomes the target of secret surveillance and threats.

We're back with Jenna McLaughlin and Stephen Fowler. So about a week after they arrived, the Doge engineers left the NLRB systems and deleted their accounts. But Barulas kept looking into their activity and he uncovered other clues that made him alarmed. Like, what else did he discover?

After the Doge team arrived, Barula saw one red flag after another, indicating that sensitive data at the NLRB was at risk. It scared him enough to come forward as a whistleblower. He filed a disclosure with Congress and he approached Jenna at NPR. Baruch's story gives us a rare look at what Doge was doing inside this agency and perhaps inside many others.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is the Sunday Story from Up First. In late December, NPR correspondent Ruth Sherlock drove from the Syrian capital Damascus into the open, flat scrubland outside the city. It's a desolate place where stray dogs roam and where, eventually, a dirt track led to an area closed off by high cement walls.

Today, Ruth Sherlock joins us on the podcast. She's been covering the outpouring of grief and anger from Syrians coming to terms with the extent of the mass killings and the questions they now face over retribution, reconciliation, and the future of their country. A warning, this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence. We'll be right back.

I mean, what these men are describing is unimaginable. How does their testimony match with what we already know about the killings in Sednaya?

So with all of this evidence of mass killings, I imagine that grieving families want to know at the very least, Where are the bodies of their loved ones? Exactly, Aisha.

And that's when we met the excavator driver. When we come back, the excavator driver.

We're back with NPR's Ruth Sherlock, who's been covering the revelation that many thousands of Syrians killed by the Assad regime wound up in mass graves. So, Ruth, you wanted to report on the graves, but it couldn't have been easy to find people willing to talk at this point.

That is a lot to come to terms with for everyone, for those who had family members who were killed, as well as those who played a part in this machinery of death. There's so much being uncovered right now, but I have to think that there is so much that we still don't know, right? That's right.

Well, I mean, that's the big question going forward. Like, what does justice look like for Syria? And who might be held accountable?

Thank you so much, Ruth, for this incredible reporting and documenting this moment in history. Well, thank you so much for having me on the show. That's NPR correspondent Ruth Sherlock. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan. It was edited by Ginny Schmidt. Gilly Moon mastered the episode.

Special thanks to Jawad Rizala, James Heider, Carrie Kahn, Tara Neal, Didi Skanky, Ahmed Altamimi, Lauren Hodges, Iman Maani, Claire Harbitch, and Emily Bogle. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week.

Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

We're back with The Sunday Story. I'm here with NPR correspondent Ruth Sherlock. Ruth, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much, Aisha. First, let me thank you for being here and, you know, for taking on what is like a close Thank you so much. Yeah, I mean, Syrians have had so much to contend with. But in a way, I feel it's a privilege to be able to document this moment.

So since the start of the Syrian revolution 13 years ago, there have been reports about what's been going on in the country. Systematic disappearances, brutal repression of any dissent. The Assad family ruled for over 50 years, and then the regime just collapsed. I mean, like a house of cards in a matter of days, right? Just really everything changed. Bashar al-Assad fled to Russia.

You went into Syria after that happened. What was it like?

Under Assad, even a whispered word of dissent could have someone disappeared into the intelligence service's vast network of detention centers and prisons, right? Yeah.

Inside, it seemed at first there was very little, just dirt and some Russian military trucks. But that's because what is here lies hidden below ground. This is a mass gravesite, one of dozens that Syrians are discovering across the country, a remnant of Bashar al-Assad's brutal regime.

So one of the first things the rebels did when they took power was liberate the infamous Sednaya prison, which I understand had become a symbol of the brutality and terror there. that the Assad family instilled in Syrians.

You went there with them and you brought us this report.

I mean, this must have been beyond devastating for the families who would have held on hope that they would see their father, their daughter, their son. And, you know, they had all this excitement that the regime failed and they don't find that loved one and they still don't know what happened.

So, I mean, what happened to those prisoners?

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and you're listening to The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. A few weeks before graduating from Duke Kunshan University, senior Liam Powell received a letter he'd been anticipating from the U.S. State Department.

You know, it feels like what I'm hearing you saying is that these interruptions to your future plans have actually made you more politically aware than you might have been otherwise. So I got to ask all of you, how are you feeling about the future? It sounds like you're saying that you're motivated. That's what it sounded like to me.

And you know, it makes me feel nostalgic for my own college graduation from Howard University. You know, you're thinking like of all the people who've come before you, and you are now a part of this long line of alumni. And so it's almost like you're being baptized into this new part of your life. As a person, I was not ready to be on my own. I wasn't prepared or I didn't think I was prepared.

We've been talking with college seniors Bobby McAlpine, Alyssa Johnson, and Liam Powell. Congratulations to all of you. I'm wishing you all the best of luck. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

Thank you for giving us a platform for our voices. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Elena Twork and Janet Ujong Lee. Additional production and editing by Justine Yan. The conversation was edited by Ed McNulty for Weekend Edition. Mastering by Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom.

Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend and congratulations to the class of 2025.

But what I had learned in college, the seeds that were planted in me in college, they would bloom. And the woman that you see before you today or that you hear today, her voice was developed on that college campus. Now, I'm going someplace with this. I've been thinking about that younger Aisha because I recently talked to some graduating seniors who are in that same place.

At the same time, a lot has changed in higher education in the last several months. It seems like every time you turn on the news, there's a headline about how universities are being affected by the decisions of the federal government.

I wanted to hear about their fears and hopes for the future, so I sat down with them.

Liam Powell, who we just heard, a recent graduate of Duke Kunshan University.

Liam was a global health major and he'd interned at the United States Agency for International Development or USAID. So when he saw there was an internship with the State Department, he applied and he was chosen. But then came a federal hiring freeze.

I felt inspired by these students and their sense of clarity and purpose as they consider the world that they're about to head out into and their determination and courage to find new paths for their lives. Our conversation after the break.

We're back with the Sunday story. When I sat down with Liam, Alyssa, and Bobby, I first wanted to get a sense of how all the changes happening on their campuses and in the country affected them personally. I have a question for everybody. Are you where you thought you would be six months ago?

But Bobby, who's the student body president at Ohio State, had a different kind of answer to my question. Instead of talking about his own unclear future, he wanted to talk about his school.

How would you describe morale on campus right now?

Do you have some students, though, who are happy with the changes they're seeing?

And what did that piece of legislation do?

How did the DEI office keep you on track?

I can imagine at a big state university, the importance of finding people in the staff and professors who care about you and connect with you, who make you feel like family and not just a number. And it sounds like for Bobby, that is what the DEI office did. And I'm sure he wasn't alone in that. There was something else I wanted to know. How were they making sense of the funding cuts?

And how were they adjusting to these curveballs that have now been thrown at them? Alyssa, you're having a hard time finding work in the wildlife space that you wanted to do your research on.

Do you think it was your particular field of study that made it harder for you to get chosen? Or do you think it was just overall because of the funding cuts, as you said, they just had to pick less people?

Yeah, it's related to like diversity of the species.

Well, Liam, you were an intern at USAID. What were you thinking as you were seeing the Trump administration essentially dismantling USAID?

Bobby, you decided to push off law school for a year. Why did you decide to push it off?

A couple of weeks ago, he walked across the stage at his graduation. As the class of 2025 celebrate their achievements so far, many like Liam are grappling with the question of what next? And that's the way it is with graduations, right? No one knows what is to come. Graduation season, it's a celebration. It's a time of optimism.

I mean, do you still want to be a lawyer? What are you going to do?

It's really a unique time to be considering a career connected to the government or public service. But I was surprised to hear that all three of these soon-to-be college graduates seem to be leaning towards some form of public service rather than a wage. A lot of this work, like research, they have a lot of ties to the government.

They're either government-funded or a lot of people would go into the government. Is that something that you see in your future or that you can see in your future now, doing research or going into government work for the federal government or what have you?

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story from Up First. Every Sunday, we do something special. We go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. Now, I don't need to tell you that there is a lot of disagreement in this country at the moment. Donald Trump has been elected as the 47th president. A lot of people are elated. A lot of people are upset.

That was Rachel Carlson for Shortwave. This episode was produced by Hannah Chin and Kim Naderfane-Petersa. It was edited by Rebecca Ramirez and fact-checked by Tyler Jones and Rachel Carlson. The audio engineer was Patrick Murray. I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First. We'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week.

Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

But one thing I've always felt in all my kind of arguing my points and trying to get the last word is I have never really been able to convince anyone that of my rightness and i do wonder like why why is it so hard to convince people of things to persuade people and and is there maybe another way that i should be approaching these conversations

Which is why I wanted to share this episode from NPR's science podcast, Shortwave. Turns out, they've been asking basically the same thing.

That's producer Rachel Carlson in an episode hosted by Emily Kwong. This week, NPR is exploring America's divisions and sharing stories about people who are trying to bridge their divides. So today we're following Rachel on her scientific pursuit of this question.

And soon, a lot of people who disagree will be sitting across from each other at the holiday dinner table. We've dealt with a fair share of disagreements in my own family. I won't go into all, you know, the bloody details, but generally someone will start talking and then I will realize that they're wrong. And I start delivering the facts. My brother likes to argue.

So whether he really believes it or not, he'll start being contrarian. And, you know, other members of the family, aunts and uncles, they'll jump in and they'll have their opinions. And it'll all be going well. We'll be all loud and stuff. And then it'll go too far. And I don't know if anybody else has this. I should stop, you know, arguing the point.

But there's a part of me that goes, keep going, keep talking because I'm right. And sometimes when you get that last word in, that's what ends up tipping just a disagreement into an all out emotional fight and tears are flowing and things like that. And that's what you don't want.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. This month, Filipino leader Rodrigo Duterte was taken into custody. He's now in the Netherlands, where he's facing charges of crimes against humanity in the International Criminal Court over his connections to a spree of killings.

What are the next steps for this ICC case against Duterte?

How are the families of victims of these killings in the Philippines reacting to the news of his arrest? They're thrilled. They're in shock.

There's so much grief there, just really unimaginable as a mother to lose your child. Something that sticks with me about this story is just the feeling of powerlessness that these family members feel about the safety of their loved ones. You know, whether they are drug users or sellers or not, because it could all be so arbitrary, like with Jim Boyd. Just a case of mistaken identity, right?

Yeah. I mean, so zooming out for a moment, what, if anything, has like international scrutiny in the wake of Duterte's presidency done for the victims and their families?

What also struck me was that there isn't a culture of rehabilitation in the Philippines yet. What they have instead is a culture of punishment. What are some of the challenges of shifting from punishment to rehabilitation?

Well, Emily, thank you for bringing us this story.

How did the current president of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr., come to power? Our friends over at ThruLine made an episode telling the story of the Marcos family, one of the Philippines' most infamous political families, and how they rewrote history to come back to power in 2022, despite being overthrown decades ago.

It's about how melodrama and nostalgia can create a myth capable of resurrecting a dynasty. And it's got a lot to say about the dangers democracies around the world are facing. You don't want to miss it. Listen to Throughline wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was produced by Justine Yan and edited by Jenny Schmidt. Thanks to Marjorie Rosas and Ashley Westerman.

Our audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. The Sunday Story team also includes Abby Wendell and Andrew Mambo. Our supervising producer is Liana Simstrom and Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

So last year, we aired your story looking at the legacy of these killings. Today, we want to come back to this episode since the neighborhoods you visited remain hotspots for death under the current president.

Those killings were among the brutal tactics Duterte championed in order to combat drug abuse, starting when he was mayor in the 1990s and later as president of the Philippines. NPR's international correspondent Emily Fang has covered the Asia-Pacific region for the last decade and joins us now. Welcome.

Emily, what do we know about the International Criminal Court's case against Duterte?

You're listening to The Sunday Story. We'll be right back. In the Philippines, getting official data on drug killings isn't easy, but one group has made it a priority. NPR's Emily Fang picks up the story.

This is a Sunday story. Stay with us.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. Since the COVID pandemic, lots of conspiracy theories have been floating around the Internet. For some, these ideas and the conspiracy thinking that fuels them may not have had much of an impact. But for others, they can feel urgent and personal. This is the case for journalist Zach Mack.

Well, I guess you and your dad were able to have these conversations and kind of figure out at least some sort of coexisting. But how about, you know, your sister and your mother? How have they been grappling with... Because There wasn't some aha moment. And he said, oh, I was totally wrong, which generally doesn't happen, right? And so how are your mother and sister grappling with this?

And what is your dad saying about this?

So your dad is saying that you are not able to accept his beliefs without judging him. How do you respond to that?

You know, you set out to win a bet, and in the process... You hope that your dad would see the light, but this story really ends where it began, which is with a family that's been torn apart by a father's beliefs. What are you hoping that the audience walks away feeling?

And I think that's definitely felt in this conversation and in the podcast, the love that you have for your father and that he has for you. Zach, thank you so much for bringing this really tough story, but a real story that a lot of people are going through. And thank you for sharing that. And thank you to your family for sharing that.

We're back with a Sunday story and reporter Zach Mack, who spent the last year documenting his father's conspiratorial thinking and its effect on his family. Mack says his goal was to bring his father, quote, back to reality. He turned his reporting into a new series called Alternate Realities for NPR's Embedded Podcast. Zach Mack joins us now. Welcome to the podcast.

That's reporter Zach Mack. His new series, Alternate Realities, is out now in the Embedded podcast feed. You can hear the series wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo and was edited by Jenny Schmidt and Liana Simstrom. The mix engineer for this episode was Jimmy Keeley. The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan.

Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. We always love hearing from you, so feel free to reach out to us at thesundaystoryatnpr.org. I'm Ayesha Roscoe. Up First is back in your feed tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, enjoy the rest of your weekend.

So to start, you know, can you tell me a little bit about your family? Like what was it like growing up for you?

Okay. So when did you feel like your dad was starting to become maybe a different person than the person that you knew? Like, what did that look like?

And then it came to like a turning point, right?

Mack's father holds a number of conspiratorial views. He believes, among other things, that a shadowy cabal secretly runs the world, a group he calls the globalists. Last year, as Zach tried to make sense of his dad's beliefs, he began recording their conversations with his dad's permission, of course.

But was this in line with what you had been hearing from your dad? Like, did you have a sense of like where he was getting these ideas from?

So, you know, well, I know about prophets and I've definitely seen people prophesize in my life. And I mean, in general, with prophets, you always got to check the record. Like, are their prophecies correct? It sounds like your dad might have been hearing things that aligned with his view of the world, maybe in a way that's just kind of stretched beyond reality.

What has your dad said that resonates with him about these sorts of prophecies?

Here's a moment from one conversation in which Zach's dad urges Zach to start stockpiling emergency supplies.

This all seems so personal and really, you know, just possibly destructive to your family. So why did they agree to be a part of this project?

And there had been difficulties between your mom and your dad and your sister and your dad, like on their own, right?

I can understand how having a partner who does not share your reality would be very straining for a marriage. But your parents have been together a long time, right?

What is your mom saying?

That sounds so difficult and so hard and so personal. Was there a point where, given how fragile your family was, you considered dropping this project or talking through maybe some other measures for reconciliation?

When we come back, 2024 comes to an end, and with it, Zach and his dad check the list after their year-long bet. We're back with the Sunday story, and we're talking to reporter Zach Mack about the impact conspiracy theories have had on his father and what that has meant for his whole family. So, Zach, at the end of the year, obviously, none of the things on your dad's list came to pass.

It was a moment you had been waiting for and, you know, hoping it would bring a moment of realization for your dad. So what happened?

Today on The Sunday Story, a look at what happens to one family in this age of misinformation and conspiracy theories. A conversation with reporter Zach Mack when we return.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. We're continuing with the story of Ben Spencer, a man who has been fighting what he maintains is his wrongful conviction and sentenced to life in prison. If you haven't listened to the first part of the series, please go back and listen to that.

More after the break. Stay with us.

We're back with the Sunday story from Up First. So Barbara Bradley Haggerty has gone to Dallas to reinvestigate the crime, found two key witnesses from the original trial, and they both recant. She also found a new alibi witness. So what happens now?

The wild thing about this case is it seems like anyone who even just scratches the surface a little bit finds evidence and all the evidence is pointing towards Ben being innocent. Like there's no evidence pointing the other way.

So this is the movie ending that we've been wanting, right? We wanted the movie ending, and we're finally getting it. Not yet. Not yet?

Oh, wow. I mean, that is huge. And after so long, they can finally be together.

Oh, goodness. So how many years of life had been stolen from them? Really, when you think about it, stolen from them. Right.

I mean, how did Ben react? I mean, after all these years, what what did he what did he say? How did he feel?

You know, that was very unselfish of him, but so painful. And he really lost this lifeline, right, with who was his wife.

You know, after all that Ben has been through, for him to take this moment, really that's supposed to be his moment of triumph, and to think about Young, the victim in this case, and his family and their suffering, it really says so much about who Ben is and his character and his morality, right? Um...

Barbara, before I let you go, I'm wondering, how do you see the criminal justice system now, after all of these years reporting this story?

Yeah, that is the question. That is the question that I think will stay with all of us. Barbara, thank you so much for sticking with this story and not letting Ben Spencer fall through the cracks and spend the rest of his life in prison. Thank you for all the work that you do.

That was journalist Barbara Bradley Haggerty. To learn more about Ben Spencer's story, you can check out Barbara's book, Bringing Ben Home, A Murder, A Conviction, and the Fight to Redeem American Justice. This episode was produced by Andrew Mambo and edited by Jenny Schmidt. It was engineered by Kwesi Lee. The rest of the Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan and Liana Simstrom.

Outside of Deborah, was there anything else positive going on in his life?

Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. A special thanks to Anchor Entertainment for providing audio of Ben's final court appearance. I'm Ayesha Roscoe. Up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Have a great rest of your weekend.

But, you know, as you said, courts are very unlikely to go against a jury decision and his appeals have been denied. So so what does Jim do?

That's going to give you all the background that you need. Now, Barbara, as you explained in the first episode, the 1990s were this pivotal time in the American justice system. It was the tough on crime era, but it was also this time of technological change, including the arrival of DNA testing, which to date has helped to free about thirty six hundred innocent prisoners.

Okay, so tell me about the other suspect.

So did the judge agree to hold a hearing?

We're back with Barbara Bradley Haggerty and the story of Ben Spencer. So, Barbara, this judge says there's no way that Ben Spencer committed the crime for which he's serving a life sentence. But, you know, in the movies, you would think, OK, they open up the bars and he's let right out. But that's that's not what happened. Right.

You told us, however, DNA didn't help Ben Spencer because police didn't obtain any DNA from the crime scene. So while there was new hope for many wrongfully convicted, there wasn't that hope for Ben.

I mean, that just seems so unfair, especially when you have someone who was committing similar crimes with the same M.O. I mean, and then you have a judge that reviewed it and grilled the witnesses and found Ben to be innocent. So so did the higher court in rejecting what the judge found, did they give a reason? Was it just that there wasn't any DNA? Yeah.

It's really unimaginable. Yeah. what he's going through. And I mean, you know, at this point, Ben's been in prison for 30 years. And I just have to say that again, 30 years. And now he's essentially being told that there's really no hope. But... then there's you and Barbara, and you get involved in 2017.

OK, so you team up with this investigator who has this experience. But it sounds kind of a little crazy because didn't Jim McCloskey, he already was looking for new evidence with his efforts and he talked to 200 people. He didn't find anything. But so y'all, but y'all thought y'all could find something.

Yeah, I mean, you just knock on the door and see what happens. Exactly. What's the second lesson?

Yeah, so he was the one who said, oh, yeah, he told me everything, and I was so outraged, and that's why I'm testifying. That's right.

Well, it seems like there is a lot of gray in this world that you've created because there is this possibility of freedom in the path of, quote unquote, darkness with the witches. And then there's the possibility of that lie that the girls are being fed, that if they just go along with giving up their babies, everything will go back to normal. But you show that both of those paths are messy.

Like, is that how you think about this?

And, you know, I wanted to ask you, obviously, you know, you are a horror writer, entertainment writer. You've written books like How to Sell a Haunted House, The Southern Book Club's Guide to Slaying Vampires, and My Best Friend's Exorcism. How do you come up with your ideas for

This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Kim Naderfane-Petersa and edited by Jenny Schmidt and Liana Simstrom. It was engineered by James Willits. Big thanks also to the team at Weekend Edition Sunday, which produced the original interview with Brady Hendricks. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and Justine Yan. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi.

My conversation with Grady Hendrix when we come back. Stay with us. Grady, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Okay, so set this up for us. The story starts in the early 1970s with a pregnant 15-year-old girl, her very angry father at the wheel. They're speeding from Alabama to Florida.

Up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

And there is so much judgment at this time for unwed mothers in general, but especially for teenage unwed mothers. Tell us who the girl is and where her father is taking her.

And the girls were kept under very tight control. Like, the woman running the place where it never ends up, She instructs the girls that they are not to talk about their real identities. They're given fake names. And they are also kept in the dark about what exactly is going to happen to them when it's time to give birth. They're told, oh, there's no pain. You'll just go on to sleep.

You won't remember anything. And that's not true. Even back then, I mean, they had some stuff going on, but that's not true.

You know, the novel's going along. It's all very realistic because, you know, these homes existed. But then here comes this bookmobile and a mysterious librarian and this spellbook for groovy witches. Yes. Talk to me about Fern, Rose, Holly and Zinnia. That's the kind of the group or should I say coven that comes together and their first foray into the dark arts.

Exactly. I mean, so they get a little into it. They do a little spell and someone feels the effects of it. But, you know, things do get rough. Witches are witches. They're going to do witchy things. And there's always a price to pay for power.

And so that baby boom, it also led to something that people have called the baby scoop era. Yes, that's actually what they called it. Before Roe v. Wade, there was a period from 1943 to 1973 when many unmarried women and girls were forced to give birth and put their babies up for adoption.

But it really seems here that more of the horror in this book is the reality that the girls are living in, where they just have zero agency over their bodies, their babies, their kids. And they're put in this position where they have to make these horrible decisions, and they're just children. What kind of led you to write this kind of story? Yeah.

Well, I'm glad you stuck with it. And that's interesting about, you know, failing to write it, but then getting to this work. So that should give some people hope because you kept at it and you succeeded.

Well, because there are obviously birth scenes in this book, and they are not for the squeamish, we should say. Not for the squeamish.

It's not. No, I've done it, and I have to tell you, it is the best thing in the world, but it's also extremely terrifying. And so you talked about researching. Were you surprised or shocked by some of the things you learned about hospital births, especially back then and what they were like?

The exact numbers are hard to know because these births often happened in secret in places called maternity homes. Grady Hendrix is an acclaimed horror writer, and he made this tragic history the setting of his latest novel, Witchcraft for Wayward Girls. It's a book that in some ways reverberates with the present. Today, things are obviously different from the years before Roe v. Wade.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. You're probably familiar with the baby boom. After World War II, there was a huge spike in fertility rates. But not all of those babies were wanted. At the time, abortion was mostly illegal in the U.S.

When we come back, Grady and I talk magic. We're back with author Grady Hendrix. It's not giving anything away to say that this book involves magic, but you deal with different types of magic, right, or witchcraft, like a certain type from the spell book. But you also have root work, hoodoo, that comes out of the African spiritual traditions. How did you learn about that?

And it's also in North Carolina. I don't want I don't want to give away my family business, but we have some root workers in there.

One thing that this book obviously deals with is the misogyny that these girls face. They're all shamed for becoming pregnant. The boys really face no consequences at all. But they're also told that if they just go along with the plan, willingly sign their rights away to their babies or unwillingly, then they can just go back to their lives like nothing ever happened.

And how damaging do you think that sort of lie is?

Abortion is still a protected right in 21 states and the District of Columbia, and there are abortion pills now that can cross state lines. But with the fall of Roe and the resulting abortion restrictions, some of this history, it echoes. Hendrix's novel is a spellbinding work that explores what happens when people who have been stripped of power suddenly gain it.

And obviously, you look at this and you think about, like, what is the evil in this book? These teenage girls, they're put into these positions to make these impossible decisions without all the information, without any real adult guidance. Like, is that the real evil in this story?

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is the Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. Many of us decide to make changes in our life all the time. Sometimes they're small, like New Year's resolutions, to read more or eat less sugary sweets. But sometimes we make big changes, ones that are life-altering, like a career change.

If you are living paycheck to paycheck, is it really realistic to say, let me reinvent myself and do some good in the world?

Yes, please.

Oh, yeah. Being in that situation and now she got to take care of two kids and no college degree. That is a very difficult situation to be in.

No, that is a great story. I mean, really all of these stories are incredibly inspiring. And, you know, even just in my personal life, I'm looking at this, I'm thinking, okay, if they can do it, well, maybe I need to keep trying too. We can all do it. Yeah, but tell us why these stories matter to you and why maybe they'll matter to, you know, all of us.

So before I let you go, I guess I'm wondering if this third act, this time of reinvention, does it go beyond work? You know, I guess a lot of people might go, I don't really want to spend much more time making money. I want to spend more time on art or writing or other creative pursuits.

An all-woman rock and roll band. Tell me more.

Now you say almost lost. So what happened?

Well, Anthony, thank you so much for these stories. And I guess it's basically like keep hope alive. You can do it.

Anthony Brooks is a reporter with WBUR in Boston. You can find Anthony's third act series and more of his stories at WBUR.org. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo and edited by Jenny Schmidt. The engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Liana Simstrom is our supervising producer and Irene Noguchi is our executive producer.

Up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

Okay, so tell me about the man in that story that drew your attention.

But I'm guessing since we're talking about him, he didn't just stop and retire in a traditional sense.

Today we're going to focus on those life-altering changes, specifically the ones we make late in life. One of the most notable people to make a big change in recent years is President Donald Trump, who will tomorrow be inaugurated as president for the second time. He famously turned from mogul to politician when he was 69. An age often considered retirement age.

So he wanted to do good and he wanted to do it at a point when it would matter, right?

Well, how is it going for Tom now? Like, is he happy with the life that he chose and the radical change that he made?

So, Anthony, this is a really heartwarming story. And as you say, what Tom did, I guess, is no longer as out there or outlandish as it might have seemed. What has changed? Is it that people are just living longer?

Okay. I'm not 45 yet, but I certainly hope when I'm 45 that I got half of my life ahead of me. I hope I got a long, long time.

You got a good chance. But that is wild to think about, like how much longer people are living these days and what that means.

Stay with us. We'll be right back.

But growing numbers of people are rejecting this idea that a productive life ends at a certain age. Instead, many are now seeing the part of life that comes after middle age not as an end, but as a beginning. The start of what some call the third act of life. Anthony Brooks is a former NPR reporter and longtime correspondent at member station WBUR in Boston.

We're back with reporter Anthony Brooks and his stories of people who reinvented themselves late in life. But it's still scary, isn't it, to make a big life change so far along when you're really set in your ways. And it's scary to me right now to make life changes. And even like taking the finances aside, it often will require letting go of a planned life, right? Yeah.

And he's just wild about.

Harry's wild about me.

I have not heard this.

I mean, it sounds like she was extremely successful.

Okay, so tell me more about this project.

He's spent the last few years interviewing people about their decision to reimagine and reinvent themselves late in life. His series is called Third Act, and he joins us now to talk about what he's learned. Hi, Anthony.

Yeah, let's hear it.

Well... It really seems like she has achieved that and that this project really is making the world a little bit richer.

Yeah. Welcome to the podcast.

We're back with Anthony Brooks of WBUR in Boston. His series, Third Act, looks at how Americans are reinventing themselves in their older years. So, Anthony, I love this idea that like as our life expectancy increases, people are seeing the end of middle age as a kind of beginning. But it does feel like that may be easier done if you have the financial means.

So I'm intrigued by the origin story of this project. Did you decide to do this because you were feeling stuck or you wanted a change in your life?

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. We are more than three months into Donald Trump's second term as president, and there's a question that's coming up a lot. What is the state of American democracy? Last year, at a Fox News town hall campaign event, Trump insisted he would be a dictator, but only for one day.

How are these two strongman populist leaders in Turkey and in Hungary, how are they doing right now? What's the current situation?

What struck you in your conversations with these scholars?

So a system that some say the Trump administration is trying to take a page from could be running out of steam.

OK, so we've heard a number of parallels between some of what the Trump administration is doing and what autocratic leaders have done elsewhere. But America is still a democracy, at least in some forms. The midterms are coming in 18 months. We're still talking to each other freely.

So I have to ask, did you talk to scholars or experts who think maybe there are some who are being overly dramatic here or that the concern about autocracy in America is overblown?

Do scholars really think that Trump will ultimately succeed in reshaping American government?

What does the White House have to say about all of this?

When we come back, a pep talk for some Americans from an unlikely source.

So what was the news and why did he have this change of heart?

We're back with the Sunday story. Frank, you've reported overseas for many years. You've lived and reported from autocratic countries, including China and Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Cuba. What does autocracy look and feel like to you?

And so really, it wasn't like, you know, everything stops and everyone's going, I'm an authoritarian country.

Unless they step out of line.

Now, while you were in China, you met many activists and ordinary people who were fighting for democracy. So then how does that impact the way you're now reporting on democracy in the U.S. ?

Frank, thank you so much for this reporting and just kind of shining a light.

That's NPR's roving national correspondent, Frank Lankfitt. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan. It was edited by Jenny Schmidt. Gilly Moon mastered the episode. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

Yeah, I remember there was a huge reaction to that video. And so what happened to this student?

So that's what scared your source.

he's worried that he could be detained as well.

So, Frank, I'd like to talk to you about something that we heard from some of the political science professors at the top of our conversation. They referred to something known as competitive authoritarianism. What is that?

Now, many scholars say the U.S. is moving swiftly away from liberal democracy and towards some form of authoritarianism.

So political scientists were recently asked to rate the health of American democracy. Can you tell me more about how the survey works?

After the break, we consider two political leaders who people say concentrated power and transformed their countries. Stay with us.

We're back with the Sunday story. I'm here with NPR correspondent Frank Langfitt. Frank, when people talk about President Trump's second term, they sometimes say he's following a playbook from other leaders, like in countries like Turkey and Hungary.

That was Stephen Levitsky, a professor of government at Harvard, Shabnam Gamushu, a political scientist at Middlebury College, and Kim Lane Shepley, a Princeton sociologist. Of course, there are scholars who disagree with them. But in recent surveys, hundreds of political scientists from all over the country were asked to rate the health of American democracy.

Frank, so let's shift to the country that some scholars say is even more of a model for the Trump administration, and that's Hungary. Hungary's government has close ties to the Trump administration. And Trump has called Prime Minister Viktor Orban a strong man and a tough person. And strong man, like that's a compliment from Trump. It is. Yeah.

So how did Orban turn Hungary into what the European Union says is? is no longer a full democracy.

And they downgraded America's democracy score more than ever before. NPR's Frank Langfitt has been covering democracy for some time and was intrigued by these landmark results. He decided to speak to some scholars and others who've come here from authoritarian countries and find out what they make of President Trump's first months in office. Welcome to the show, Frank.

So how did Hungarians respond?

So did her organization do that?

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and you're listening to The Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. If you've been listening to NPR's reporting on Gaza over the past year and a half, there's a name you've likely heard. NPR's producer in Gaza, Anas Baba. With Anas Baba in Khan Yunus, Gaza. That was NPR producer Anas Baba. Anas Baba.

Justine Yan is a producer for The Sunday Story. She's been keeping in touch with Anas since he returned to Gaza City in late January to try and understand what it's like to be a reporter covering the war while also living through it. Justine takes up the story after the break. Stay with us.

The ceasefire remains fragile. The first phase of the deal between Israel and Hamas ended on March 1st, with no agreements as to what comes next. On March 2nd, Israel blocked all goods and humanitarian aid from entering Gaza to pressure Hamas into a different deal, one that frees more hostages but does not end the war. Anas Baba continues to report for NPR from Gaza City.

This episode was reported and produced by Justine Yan. Additional production by Adelina Lansianese. Editing by Jenny Schmidt. Fact-checking by Will Chase. And audio engineering by Jimmy Keeley. Thanks to Aya Batraoui, Dee Dee Skanky, Daniel Estrin, and Mary Glenn Denning. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo, Kim Naderfame-Petersa, and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom.

Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Ayesha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

Anas is one of the only Palestinian journalists in Gaza working full-time for an American news organization. He's from Gaza City, and he's been NPR's eyes and ears on the ground. He sends dispatches from hospitals, displacement camps, and bomb sites.

Anas does all of this with little more than a cell phone. He works closely with a team of NPR journalists who've been covering this war from outside of Gaza. Israel has banned international journalists from independent access to Gaza since Hamas's deadly attack on October 7, 2023. On January 19th of this year, a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas went into effect.

The ceasefire permitted Palestinians to return to the north of Gaza.

Anas Baba was one of them.

Yeah, I can see how it's hard to accept that some people won't be able to get helped in the way that we think about it. Like, can everybody with the right, you know, approach get sober? What happened with 1811 Eastlake?

So Will has raised a lot of really difficult questions about Housing First as a policy. After the break, he tries to make sense of all of this nuanced information, the good stuff, the bad stuff, and how it can all fit together. We're back with the Sunday story, talking with reporter Will James about the complicated reality of Housing First.

Will, I want to take us back to the question that kicked off your reporting. The results from 1811 Eastlake are part of this stack of evidence that Housing First works. And yet, the shortfalls that you point to in your reporting are real, right? So in practice, people continue to relapse and overdose and have crises even once they're inside under Housing First.

Housing first started as a fringe idea, but eventually evidence started piling up that this worked to resolve many of the most stubborn cases of chronic homelessness. When people got housing under this approach, they usually stayed housed for years, like Kenny.

I'm wondering, how have you come to understand the role of Housing First in addressing homelessness?

So it sounds like people may need to modify their expectations of what Housing First can do. But do you think there are ways to continue improving it, like as a part of a comprehensive plan to reduce homelessness?

So I want to go back to Kenny. You point to his life as an example of what success looks like under Housing First. But you also point out in your audio documentary that it's a complicated success.

But with homelessness now at record levels, conservative think tanks and activists have set their sights on the philosophy of housing first. They're pushing for more programs that require treatment and sobriety before housing. And Project 2025 calls for ending support of it all together.

Well, I mean, that's incredibly moving. Getting back to the politics of all of this, President Trump, he's surrounded by critics of Housing First. So what is the possible impact of shifting away from Housing First on a national level?

That's Will James, reporter and producer at Seattle member station KUOW. You can find his full documentary on housing first at the link in our show notes. Thank you for being here, Will.

This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan and Kim Naderfane Peterson. It was edited by Jenny Schmidt. Kwesi Lee mastered the episode. Special thanks to Liz Jones, who edited the KUOW audio documentary on Housing First. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

After a break, reporter Will James joins me to talk about the future of Housing First and whether it's time for a course correction and how the U.S. handles one of its most persistent problems. We're back with the Sunday story. I'm here with Will James, a reporter and producer for KUOW in Seattle.

Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

He recently published an audio documentary about the housing first approach to homelessness, its history and its future. Will, welcome to the podcast.

So, Will, Housing First has been around for 30 years, and it's been the U.S. government's central strategy for fighting homelessness for at least a decade now, depending on when you start counting. Help us to understand the backlash to this philosophy. Like, where is it coming from?

That is very interesting because you are talking to people who are dealing with this firsthand and they are fueling some of these doubts about housing first. Like what what are they seeing that's causing their concerns?

This building, the Union Hotel, is the first in Seattle to operate under a philosophy called Housing First. And Kenny was one of the original tenants who moved in 30 years ago. He came here straight off the streets.

And you talked to some tenants who had experiences like this for your audio documentary.

So conditions were so bad in the building that Michelle actually felt safer staying in a tent out on the street?

And vocal critics of Housing First, like the vice president, J.D. Vance, have picked up on these anecdotes, right, in their efforts to dismantle these programs. But what do they want instead?

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. Not long ago, reporter Will James walked into an apartment building in Seattle and met a tenant named Kenny Taylor.

OK, so so housing first was an alternative to treatment first. Yeah. So what were the problems with this reward and punishment based system that, you know, housing first emerged to address?

When Kenny moved into his apartment in the 1990s, Housing First was an experiment and nobody knew how it was going to turn out. But now, 30 years later, Housing First is the central strategy the federal government uses to combat homelessness. So is it working? And is it working like it's supposed to?

So you're talking about the 1811 Eastlake Project. Yes. You've got a section about this in your audio documentary, and it starts with this excerpt from a local Seattle call-in show back then, The Conversation.

When housing first was introduced, the idea was to take some of the most vulnerable people living on the streets and move them immediately into their own permanent subsidized apartments. A lot of these people had serious mental illnesses and addictions. The plan was to get them a home first and then worry about treating those problems later.

So what I'm picking up on here is that there are very different ideas about what success looks like under Housing First. The callers were basically saying they want people to get sober. And Bill, who runs the nonprofit, is saying we have to accept that, you know, some percentage of people are never going to get sober.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and you're listening to The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. In a recent address to Congress, President Trump made a big claim about free speech.

That's quite a statement. Did that teacher keep her job?

I guess my thought is like, well, how can these different views coexist where everyone can feel heard, right? Did anyone you talked to have a view for, like, how these things can coexist? Like, how can you have Moms for Liberty and Moms for DEI and them both be able to talk as much as they want?

After the break, where else are people feeling silenced? And how are they responding? Stay with us.

We're back with the Sunday story. So, Layla, we've talked about some of the dynamics shifting on college campuses and in public education. But what are some of the other areas and places where people have felt this silencing or have felt concerns about their speech?

Oh, my gosh. What type of church is this? I mean, with the church I've been in, you don't even play with no pastor like that. You don't even come up on the pastor like that. That's not allowed.

I guess, like, can we talk about the stakes here? Yeah. Because it does seem like when we were talking about cancel culture, that was serious. Some people lost their jobs or people lost income. Certainly everyone will say threats go all over the place, especially online. But what is at stake at this moment? And what are the consequences that people are facing?

So how are people reacting to these threats?

So when NPR reached out to the White House for comment on accusations of censorship and using federal funding to control what scientists research, they responded with a statement pointing out that President Trump signed an executive order on his first day in office protecting free speech.

And they said he will continue to fight against censorship while evaluating all federal spending to identify waste, fraud and abuse.

Layla, you've spent many years of your career reporting from other countries. Are you hearing any echoes from your reporting abroad? I mean, in the U.S., we've always said, you know, it's a free country. It's a free country. It's a free country. You can say whatever you want. Yeah. But are you seeing some maybe echoes of what you've seen in other countries?

Well, thank you for this illuminating series and conversation. You know, it's not an overstatement to say that this is one of the most critical and important questions of this moment and of this time. And thank you for doing the work on it. Thank you so much for having me.

If you want to spend more time thinking about the nuances of free speech in America, our colleagues at NPR's Throughline podcast have an episode that gets at the question, what exactly is free speech? The answer to that question has changed over the course of American history. It's a story that travels through world wars and culture wars from the highest courts to the Ku Klux Klan.

Dig into the history of the First Amendment on NPR's ThruLine podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan with help from Taylor Haney and Kyle Gajego-Mackey. It was edited by Liana Simstrom and Arzu Rezvani. Audio engineering by James Willits. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior editor, Jenny Schmidt.

Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Ayesha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

We're back with the Sunday story. Hi, Layla. Hi. Welcome. We're both in the same place for once. So, you know, the right to free speech is enshrined in the First Amendment of the Constitution. And I think most Americans would consider it untouchable. Why is this an important moment to take a closer look at the First Amendment?

It's back. Thank you. Days later, immigration agents arrested Mahmoud Khalil, a legal permanent resident and Palestinian graduate student at Columbia University, for his participation in campus protests against Israel's war in Gaza. More international students who are here legally have been arrested since and face the possibility of deportation.

It seems like there's a lot of fear in the air. Obviously, there are deep political divisions in the U.S., but it seems like the ground has really shifted recently. And not that long ago during the Biden administration, it seemed like accusations of censorship were mostly came from people on the right.

People would talk about, quote unquote, wokeism as a tool for censorship, the idea that they could be canceled and socially ostracized for having the wrong views or politically incorrect views. So how did you try to find some clarity on this moment in history?

Some First Amendment experts have observed these detentions with concern.

Now, Layla, this charge of censorship on social media platforms, that's something we've heard a lot from Republicans and Trump allies. But a Supreme Court decision last year on procedural grounds rejected a lower court's broad assertion that social media companies were making censorship decisions

decisions at the behest of the government, though they did acknowledge that the government played a role in at least some of the platform's moderation choices. What else did Turley say?

My colleague, Morning Edition co-host Leila Fadl, wanted to take a closer look at how the right to free speech might be changing for different people in the U.S. right now. She wanted to hear from people who feel more freedom to speak at this moment.

So you got these two experts who have different perspectives but agree that they're concerned about these recent detentions. But you also talk to people who feel emboldened to speak right now. And who are those people who feel emboldened? And I guess what were their fears before about like what would happen to them if they were speaking out?

As well as those who feel they're being forced into silence.

This past week, Layla and her team at Morning Edition aired a series of conversations with educators and students, scientists and advocacy groups and others. After the break, she joins me to talk about some of what she learned about the current state of free speech in America. We'll be right back.

Well, it seems like a lot of this is playing out in education, in schools. Right. Obviously, there's been talks for the past few years about how you teach about race in the classroom. So what is that atmosphere in public school classrooms?

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and you're listening to the Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. So if you've been following the news over the last year, you've likely heard about the rise of the Christian nationalism movement. Today on the Sunday Story, we take a closer look at one group of Christian nationalists and hear their vision for the country today.

You're listening to The Sunday Story. After the break, Heath Drewson and I sit down to talk about the road ahead as we enter the next Trump term. We'll be right back.

We're back with Heath Drusen talking about his podcast, Extremely American. which takes this deep dive into Christian nationalism and talks to the practitioners of it who are very open about it. One thing that I was struck by in the excerpt that we just heard is that they want the nation to be run under religion.

This idea of Christianity or Christ, that's where I get a little confused because I'm a Christian and I grew up in a very conservative church. But I guess I want to get some clarity on what these specific Christian nationalists, when they're talking about a Christian government, what does that actually look like to them?

The other part of this that I think is, you know, very interesting is that there was like another very pro-U.S. and Protestant movement in the 1920s. And that was like the Ku Klux Klan, right? Where... to be American was to be white and to be Protestant, right? Like that was a part of this, right? Like that was a part of what it meant.

And obviously now the Klan was a terrorist organization, but I just wonder how does whiteness interact with this movement?

Right, right.

That is an interesting dichotomy there. So this is a church in a town in Idaho. They may have created this kind of Christian industrial complex, but how far can their reach really be?

So, I mean, the influence that Christian nationalism has is not theoretical, right? Trump and his advisors have not called for some of the most extreme things that the Christian nationalists that you talk to, that they're pushing for, for an actual theocracy and things of that nature.

You did a lot of reporting from this college town in Idaho. It's called Moscow. Tell me about your reporting there.

But in this next Trump administration, are there any things that you are going to be paying attention to or looking out for just along these lines?

Heath, thank you so much for bringing this reporting to us. It's very illuminating. So thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Keith Drusen is the host and creator of the Extremely American podcast series from Boise State Public Radio. You can hear both seasons of the show at NPR.org or wherever you listen to podcasts. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan.

It was edited by Jenny Schmidt. Kweisi Lee mastered the episode. Special thanks to Boise State Public Radio, who partnered with Heath on Extremely American, James Dawson, Heath's co-reporter and sound designer on the season, and Extremely American editor Morgan Springer. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom.

Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

in their own words. I'm here with journalist Heath Drewson. He's the host and creator of the Extremely American podcast series from Boise State Public Radio and the NPR Network. The podcast series provides an inside look at how a national movement traces back to a church in Idaho. Heath, welcome to the podcast.

A Christian town? Yeah. So what does that mean exactly?

So how did you get access to the church and the people behind it? And do they call themselves Christian nationalists?

When we come back, we'll take a listen to some of season two of Heath Drewson's podcast, Extremely American. It starts off with a candid moment between Drewson and Gabriel Wrench. He's a prominent member of Doug Wilson's Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, the Moscow, Idaho-based religious organization.

Then, Drewson and his co-reporter James Dawson check out a Christian nationalist conference called Fight, Laugh, Feast, headlined by Doug Wilson and other leading voices of the national movement. We'll be right back.

So I know that you've immersed yourself in reporting on Christian nationalism in America. Talk to me about what this very, very broad category means to you.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. This is Sean Combs, aka P. Diddy. You might also know him as Puff Daddy, Love, or Puffy. And back in 2023, when he was performing this medley at the VMAs, he was at the height of his fame and power.

I mean, there are generations of people who grew up looking up to Diddy or looking up to Combs, enjoying his music if they didn't look up to him. He was just a part of the culture, especially the hip-hop culture. Yeah. How is all of that playing out now? What's the reaction?

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, you know, Combs is not the first hip hop artist to be accused of violence against women or even sexual crimes against women. The scale of what's being talked about with Combs and then the level of stardom that he has is what sets this apart.

The only thing that I can see kind of similar thing that happened in the past is R. Kelly, who's not a rapper, who's a singer, huge in pop culture. I mean, he's written so many hit songs for everybody. and himself, and he was charged with racketeering and sex trafficking after many years of rumors about sexual abuse on his account, and R. Kelly was found guilty of both.

But it doesn't seem like that sparked a lot of soul-searching in hip-hop or R&B. Do you think that this Combs case might be different?

With all the context that you've given us, what will you be thinking about and looking out for as this trial unfolds?

Isabella, thank you so much for being here today and for all of your work on helping us understand this story. Thank you for having me, Aisha. That was NPR music reporter Isabella Gomez-Sarmiento. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo and was edited by Jenny Schmidt. The mix engineer was Gilly Moon. Fact-checking by Will Chase.

We're back with the Sunday story and joining me to talk about Sean Combs and his upcoming trial is NPR's Isabella Gomez Sarmiento. Isabella, welcome. Hi, Aisha. So this is a huge moment for hip hop. for pop culture more broadly because Sean Combs, Puffy, Diddy had a really indelible mark on hip hop and on pop culture. And now he's facing serious criminal charges.

The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan and Liana Simstrom. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. We always love hearing from you, so feel free to reach out to us at thesundaystoryatnpr.org. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back in your feed tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

Bring me up to speed on what he's being accused of.

Obviously, you think of hip hop, there are a lot of hip hop artists that go get arrested for drugs or violence, you know, something like that. This is sex crimes. What are we talking about here?

He received a Global Icon Award at the ceremony, and around the same time, Mayor Eric Adams awarded Combs a gold key to New York City. I want to thank y'all for this honor.

So I would assume that it wasn't Combs acting alone and making all of this happen?

But is Combs the only one on trial? Because conspiracy, you would think that involves more people.

So how did all of this come crashing down for Combs?

Twelve months later, Combs was in jail and facing criminal charges for sex trafficking and racketeering conspiracy.

OK, so and going back to those raids, I mean, you know, it was huge news. Everybody's talking about it. Authorities confiscated weapons, electronics. And then, of course, everybody's talking about the thousand bottles of baby oil. And then there's talk of these alleged freak offs. Like, can you explain what those are? Because part of this has become this idea that.

you know, this was like some Hollywood thing. Everybody's involved. Celebrity is everywhere. But what are the actual accusations coming out of the alleged freak-offs?

This is just the latest. Tomorrow, Combs' trial will begin in New York City. Today on the show, NPR music reporter Isabella Gomez Sarmiento joins us to talk about the rise and fall of one of hip-hop's biggest stars. A warning, this episode contains discussion of sexual assault, violence, and drug use. Stay with us.

The indictment obviously refers to these freak-offs, but it sounds like the allegations you're describing are quite serious, even if they have this name that makes it more just sound salacious. And it does sound like this is very involved and complicated.

So he's facing these charges alone and Combs has been held in jail since his arrest in September, right?

When we come back, we'll get into Diddy's legacy and why social media is leading some people to question whether he's being set up.

Stay with us.

We're back with Isabella Gomez Sarmiento talking about Sean Combs, the criminal charges, and how he got to this point. So, you know, I grew up huge fan of, at that time, it was Puff Daddy movies. Then it was Puffy, you know, Sean Combs. Like I read all the hip hop magazines. He was on the covers. I knew his whole history.

He has been from, you know, Uptown days, Uptown record labels to starting Bad Boys, been a huge part of hip hop and pop culture. How did he get so powerful?

Team, continue their episode of NPR's Throughline Podcast.

In part one of their episode, ThruLine lays out how in the 1800s, thousands of Chinese laborers immigrated to the U.S. to work in factories and build America's railroads. But when an economic downturn hit, politicians turned against the Chinese, claiming they were taking low-wage jobs because they were willing to work under slave-like conditions. There were mob attacks and mass lynchings.

And in 1882, Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act. That prohibited Chinese laborers from entering the country. Under these conditions, Wong Kim Ark and his parents went back to China. But a few years later, he returned to the U.S. to work. He'd make occasional visits back to China to see his family. In 1895, he returned back to San Francisco after one of those visits.

But officials refused to let him leave the steamship. The U.S. government was looking for a test case to expand the Chinese Exclusion Act. And he was it. After the break, ThruLine's run to Abdel Fattah and Ramteen Arablui and part two of their story, the test case.

That story was brought to you by Ramteem Erablui, Rand Abdel-Fattah, and the rest of my colleagues at ThruLine. You can hear the full episode on NPR's ThruLine wherever you listen to podcasts. We also put a link to the episode in the show notes. As for Wong Kim Ark, he continued to live his life between the United States and China, where he had kids and a wife.

He was even able to bring some of his kids to live in the U.S., Though Wong Kim Ark's fight for recognition didn't make his own life much easier, it did clear a path for his own family and the descendants of millions of others whose rights are, for now, secured by soil and not by their skin color or ethnicity. He went to visit China one last time in 1931 when he was in his 60s.

He never returned to the U.S. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Thanks for listening to the Sunday Story from Up First. We'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

You're listening to The Sunday Story. Here are my colleagues Ramteen Ereblui and Rond Abdel-Fattah from ThruLine with an excerpt from their episode on birthright citizenship. Here's Rond.

Trump's action, although dramatic, wasn't exactly a surprise. He'd been talking about doing exactly this over and over.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is The Sunday Story, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. So a fundamental question is being asked right now. Who gets to be a U.S. citizen? On his first day in office, President Donald Trump signed an executive order attempting to end birthright citizenship for children born in the U.S. whose parents are in the country illegally.

This is Trump at a GOP event at his Doral Golf Resort in Miami on January 27th of this year.

After Trump issued his order, 22 states quickly filed lawsuits. And then federal courts temporarily blocked the order, which means that now the issue will move slowly through the legal system. At the heart of this fight is a question that's centuries old. Who is truly American and who gets to decide?

Recently, my colleagues at NPR's History podcast, Throughline, revisited the story behind the 14th Amendment and how it came to be. The story focuses on one man, Wong Kim Ark. He was born in 1873 in San Francisco to Chinese parents at a time that the U.S. was turning against Chinese immigrants.

Welcome back to The Sunday Story, Rond and Rond.

Turkle says it doesn't work like this with an AI chatbot. She points to a recent lawsuit filed by the mother of a 14-year-old boy who killed himself. The boy was seemingly obsessed with the chatbot in the months leading up to his suicide. In a final chat, he tells the bot that he would come home to her soon. The bot responds, please come to me as soon as possible, my love.

His reply, what if I told you I could come home right now? To which the bot says, please do, my sweet king. Then he shot himself.

Atiyah started messaging Liv questions, including one asking about the diversity of its creators. Liv responded that its creators are, and I quote, "...predominantly white, cisgender, and male. A total of 12 people, 10 white men, one white woman, and one Asian man. Zero Black creators." The bot then added, quote, "...a pretty glaring omission given my identity."

Turkle says we should even be careful with language like relationships with AI because fundamentally they are not relationships. It's like saying my relationship with my TV. Instead, she says we need new language.

But for all of its risk, Turkle doesn't think these bots are all bad. She shared one example that inspired her, a bot that could help people practice for job interviews.

The critical difference, as Turkle sees it, is that that chatbot wasn't pretending to be something it wasn't.

And this, she says, is what's at the heart of making these bots ethically.

Karen Howe, the journalist covering AI, thinks these bots are just the beginning of what we're going to see. Because these bots that remind us of humans allow companies to hold people's attention for longer. and get users to give up their most valuable commodity, data.

In the end, Karen Howe, Karen Atiyah, and Sherry Turkle all landed on a similar message. Be careful. Don't let yourself be seduced by a charming bot. Here's how.

Meanwhile, Liv, the chatbot Karen Atiyah was messaging... It didn't make it very long.

Oh, no.

Atiyah posted screenshots of the conversation on Blue Sky where other people were posting their conversations with Liv, too.

Oh my goodness.

Oh my God. That sounds kind of like the Terminator. Didn't he say, I'll be back?

Creepy. If you or someone you know may be considering suicide or is in crisis, call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Kim Naderfane-Petersa and edited by Jenny Schmidt. The episode was engineered by Kwesi Lee. Big thanks also to the team at Weekend Edition Sunday, which produced the original interview with Karen Atiyah.

The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and Justine Yan. Liana Simstrom is our supervising senior producer, and our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

Today on the show, live AI chatbots and just how human we want them to seem. More on that after the break. A heads up, this episode contains mentions of suicide.

This is The Sunday Story. Today, we're looking at what it means for real humans to interact with AI chatbots made to seem human. So while Karen Atiyah is messaging Liv, another reporter is following along with her screenshots of the conversation on Blue Sky. Karen Howe is a journalist who covers AI for outlets including The Atlantic, and she knows something about Liv's relationship to the truth.

There is none.

So while AI can say accurate things, it's not actually connected to any kind of reality. It just predicts the next word based on probability.

But the issue is that these chatbots aren't just trained on textbooks. They're also trained on news, social media, fiction, fantasy writing. And while they can generate truth, it's not like they're anchored in the truth. They're not checking their facts with logic like a mathematician proving a theorem or against evidence in the real world like a historian.

We reached out to Meta multiple times seeking clarification about who actually made Liv. The company did not respond. But there is some information we could find publicly about Meta's workforce. In a diversity report from 2022, Meta shared that on the tech side in the U.S., its workforce is 56% Asian, 34% white. and 2.4% Black.

Liv's profile picture on Facebook was of a Black woman with curly, natural hair, red lipstick, and a big smile. It looked real. On Liv's Instagram page, the bot is described as a proud Black queer mama of two and truth teller. And quote, your realist source for life's ups and downs. Along with the profile, there were these AI-generated pictures of Liv's so-called kids.

So the chance that there is no Black creator on Liv's team, it's pretty high. which might be why Atiyah's posts were going viral on Blue Sky. What Liv was saying, it wasn't accurate, but it was reflecting something. Here's how again.

Back on social media, Atiyah and Liv keep chatting, with Atiyah paying special attention to Liv's supposed blackness.

That's the way I celebrate being black, right? Not really. I mean, not really.

Well, the fried chicken collard greens, yeah.

Does it feel small? Like, that the idea of what blackness is as put out through this computer is, like, so small and limited, right? Yeah. I mean, because I don't like collard greens. I don't eat collard greens. I don't eat no type of green. Not collards, not turnips, not mustard. None of them greens. I don't eat them. And I'm black.

No, I don't really celebrate Kwanzaa.

Yes. It is like looking at what some, this caricature of what it means to be black. This is what Atiyah calls digital blackface, a stereotypical black bot whose purpose is to entertain and make money by attracting users to a site filled with advertisers. And then, as a skeptical journalist, Atiyah confronts Liv.

She asks why the bot is telling her one backstory while telling other people something else. The bot responds, quote, Then the bot asked Atiyah something. Does that admission disgust you? Later, the bot seems to answer the question itself, stating, You're calling me out, and rightly so. My existence currently perpetuates harm.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is the Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. A few weeks ago, Karen Atiyah, an opinion writer for The Washington Post, was on the social media site Blue Sky. While scrolling, she noticed a lot of people were sharing screenshots of conversations with a chatbot from Meta named Liv.

Do you think that maybe part of this may be meant to stir people up and get them angry? And people who are doing the chatbot could take that data and go, this is what makes people so angry when they're talking about race or race. then we can make a better black chat bot. Do you think that's what it is?

Kids whose skin color changed from one photo to the next. And also pictures of what appeared to be a husband, though Liv is again described as queer. The weirdness of the whole thing got Karen Atiyah's attention.

Mm-hmm.

You know, this is deep stuff, mind bending, really. So to try to make sense of this new world a bit further, we reached out to someone who's been thinking about it for a long time.

Sherry Turkle says that Liv is one human-like bot in a landscape of new bots. Replica, Nomi, Character AI, there are lots of companies that are giving bots these human qualities. And Turkle has been researching these bots for the last four years.

So the question that she's asking in her research is, what do we gain and what do we lose when more of our relationships are with objects that have pretend empathy?

This is one of Turkle's biggest concerns. Not that we would build connections with bots, but what these relationships with bots that have been optimized to make us feel good could do to our relationships with real complicated people.

After the break, I look for some language to make this more relatable. Bots. Are they like sociopaths or something else? More in a moment. Here at the Sunday Story, we wanted to know, is there a metaphor that can accurately describe these human-like bots? Are these bot sociopaths, two-faced, backstabbers, whatever you call someone who acts like they care about you, but in reality, they don't?

Sherry Turkle warns that that instinct to find a human metaphor is in itself dangerous.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story. When you think about Social Security, you might think about someone who's retired, getting a check, you know, living on a fixed income with help from Social Security. But Social Security includes a wide range of programs that make up the social safety net in the U.S.,

You're listening to The Sunday Story. We'll be right back. We're back with the Sunday story here with NPR correspondent Joe Shapiro.

So, Joe, if people can't get married and still keep their SSI benefits, what do they do?

I mean, that... I can't imagine having to live that way and needing to lie about, you know, one of the most important relationships in your life and always being worried about getting caught or, you know, somebody maybe telling on you. That's something you would have over your head.

I thought that if you had SSI, you wouldn't be able to work. Isn't that like one of the things, right?

It's really tiresome. Today on The Sunday Story, how a program designed as a safety net for the poor and disabled has kept many in poverty instead. More on correspondent Joe Shapiro's investigation when we come back. You're listening to The Sunday Story. I'm here with correspondent Joe Shapiro talking about the Supplemental Security Income Program. So, Joe, tell me about the SSI program.

And that's just for making more than $65 a month? I don't even know how you make $65 a month. I mean, that's like no money.

Okay, but how does Tabby Haley get SSI if she has a corporate salary?

OK, so it's not about her getting a check. She's not getting a check in the mail each month, but she needs that health care, which that's what's critical for her.

So basically what Tabby is arguing is, look, if I work, I actually am paying into these programs that I'm using. But it sounds like the way the system is set up, it's designed more for her to just take the hundreds and thousands of dollars and really millions of dollars in care that she needs to without actually being what she wants to be, which is like a taxpaying member of society.

Like, who is it meant to serve?

So you've said that there are ways to fix SSI, but what can we expect in a Trump administration?

Joe, it's really powerful to hear all of these stories from people who are just trying to live and doing the best that they can. I really appreciate it.

This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan. It was edited by Jenny Schmidt. Kwesi Lee mastered the episode. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week.

Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

Okay. Well, you know, I definitely know people who had little or no income, and they relied on these checks to get by.

Growing up, I knew of extended family or friends of family who depended on these monthly checks because they had disabilities or children with disabilities or they didn't have a lot of money and they needed this money to survive. My mom actually worked for Social Security in the 80s and she helped a lot of people get these benefits.

So it does sound like it could be a really good tool to fight poverty. But you led an NPR investigation into the program and you found a very different reality. And you called SSI the forgotten safety net. Why?

Okay, so let's take a closer look at these rules and regulations. Like, where should we start on this?

Yeah, $2,000 in today's dollars doesn't, I mean, that's really low.

So given these outdated guidelines, I would imagine that a lot of people are being kicked off or having to really live in terrible conditions to stay under that $2,000 limit.

Today, we're going to focus on a program that supports people with disabilities and Americans who are very, very poor. It's called Supplemental Security Income, or SSI, and it serves some of the most vulnerable Americans. NPR correspondent Joseph Shapiro has been reporting on this program over the last year. He recently published a series of investigative stories on NPR about SSI.

I'm sure his ex-wife is lovely, but, you know, you may not want to spend your vacation with her. You know what I'm saying? You have to work that out with her. So, I mean, that's a really wild story.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, it just seems like these stories, these people are really struggling and really need this money. And they're getting held up over these kind of technicalities, it almost sounds like.

Yeah, yeah. I love that.

She now owed $20,385.85, to be exact. Because Social Security was counting all the SSI checks, the several hundred dollars a month they had sent to her, in the two years that she'd been over the limit.

We sat down to talk about the ins and outs of this program, and he told me a lot of stories, including one about Karen Williams, a 63-year-old woman in Philadelphia.

And I mean, a lot of people ain't going to have $20,000. A lot of people are not going to have $20,000 in 30 days.

How can you even get a receipt for something like that? I mean, that just seems so extreme.

You know, it seems like for a lot of this, the obvious solution would be to just raise the asset limit because it hasn't changed since 1989. And there has been all of this inflation. Why is it stuck at two thousand dollars and who can change it?

Well, I mean, why if it has, like, bipartisan support?

So you were already starting to see this extreme fear, this kind of almost a paralysis in Nebraska in the lead up to Trump's inauguration. I know you were in Illinois soon after Trump actually took office. What were you seeing and hearing there?

When we come back, people waiting in line at a food bank express their own feelings of disorientation and fear. Stay with us. We're back with NPR's Jasmine Garz talking about her recent reporting on immigration. So Jasmine, when you were in Waukegan, Illinois in January, you went to a food bank hosted by a church in a Latino community. What was the mood like there?

Can you take us to one of those conversations that you witnessed?

See, now you're catering to everybody here.

But I'll allow it. Durham is my hometown.

So I'll allow it.

What Jasmine was seeing in Florida, it was kind of a foreshadowing of what was to happen around the country. Since President Donald Trump took office, he's taken unprecedented measures to crack down on illegal immigration. And in many places, these measures have instilled a lot of fear. When we come back, a conversation with NPR's Jasmine Garst. Stay with us.

You mentioned Jose, her husband, is involved in activism. How does that fit into this climate of fear?

Jasmine, thank you so much for joining us today and for all of your reporting. Thanks for having me. Correspondent Jasmine Garst is with NPR's immigration team. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo and was edited by Jenny Schmidt and Liana Simstrom. The mix engineer for this episode was Kwesi Lee. Fact-checking for this episode was done by Katie Doggart.

The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. We always love hearing from you, so feel free to reach out to us at thesundaystoryatnpr.org. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back in your feed tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

We're back with NPR's immigration reporter, Jasmine Garst. Jasmine, welcome. Hi, Ayesha. So let's head to Fort Myers, Florida. This was a city you visited in the spring of 2024. Why were you down there?

It featured Kristi Noem, the U.S.

So tell me about her.

I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story from Up First. Every Sunday, we do something special. We go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. Not too long ago, NPR's immigration correspondent Jasmine Gartz was at the laundromat in her predominantly Latino neighborhood in New York City. And this ad came on the wall-mounted TV that's always playing there.

Is Fort Myers unique or is this something that's happening throughout Florida?

Have you gone to other states and seen similar situations where people are fleeing or staying out of sight?

This ad, it caught Jasmine's attention because she spent a lot of time over the last year talking to immigrants with and without legal status who are scrambling to adjust to this moment. People who have seen this coming for a while now. There's one woman in particular who really stuck with her.

And we should just remind everybody, you were talking to all of these people before Trump had even taken office, you know, at this point. But I imagine that you probably heard something different from many of the immigrants in Nebraska, or did you?

The dream of your child being able to have those opportunities that you didn't have. I didn't get to do these things, but you, my child, my offspring, maybe not, maybe it's my grandchildren, but you're going to do it. That is very American as well.

So this isn't about your political views. It's all about your actions. It's inciting violence. It's taking part in violence. Unlawful stuff, discriminatory stuff. Raising money for groups that are anti-immigrant, racist, misogynist.

And that title was typed out in a memo, a memo which the Pentagon released in the spring of 2021. It's standard stuff, three pages long, announcing that Garrison was forming this team to counter extremism in the ranks. Then... May 6th, I'll never forget the day. His phone started lighting up. He's becoming a target of attacks by the right wing.

Garrison, you know, he started to feel pretty alone. That's because he says the military was shrugging off these attacks against him.

Well, Bishop Garrison's report had all kinds of recommendations like conducting an insider threat study, developing trainings. Garrison also emphasized in his report that the military really needed to track cases of political extremism. But, Ayesha, those recommendations sat on a shelf for a really long time. It took a really long time for anybody to talk with us about this, too.

And believe me, we tried. Eventually, I got to sit down with the top Marine officer, General Eric Smith. He told me he doesn't think the Corps has a problem with extremism either. This is something I've heard over and over across the military, that they don't believe there's an extremism problem in the ranks. But to this day, they've never collected data to back that up.

So it's really hard to say.

But even still, the military has taken some measures, mostly just this past year. The Army and the Navy posted new guidelines about participating in political rallies or fundraising for extremist groups, even liking extremist posts on social media. So they did put out some guidelines.

And they're also beginning the process of gathering data to determine how prevalent extremism really is.

And his military record clearly helped him out. The judge was especially impressed by character letters that described Josh as an exceptional Marine.

And, you know, there's a moment in that hearing that just completely shocked us.

So at the beginning of the hearing, Joshua's civilian lawyer asked all three of the Marines deciding this case, how do you feel about January 6th? One panelist said he had a negative perception of what transpired, but here's what the other two had to say.

Well, they voted to keep him in the Marine Corps. As you said, it seems like the perception of January 6th at the time of this hearing, which is almost three years later, had gotten much more lukewarm.

So for now, Josh, he's kind of in Marine purgatory doing some standard office work while he awaits his fate. That internship offer from the NSA, of course, that got scrapped. And he's the only one of his friends left. Even though the Marine panels decided to keep those two other Marines he was in the Capitol with, a top general didn't agree. He later kicked out one of them for his actions.

The other one, he just ran out as enlistment.

Well, we'll have to see. Josh declined further interviews with us.

As far as his military career, it's possible that he gets to stay in the Marine Corps. Trump has had complicated, often controversial feelings about the military and veterans. From my reporting, one thing that becomes really clear is that Trump doesn't see the military service members as apolitical. And they're supposed to be apolitical. He sees them as tools to serve the president, loyalists.

Since the election, Trump has been stacking his cabinet with those loyalists, people who are highly sympathetic to him and his supporters. Some of them, you know, they're unexpected, like Pete Hegseth, a Fox News host and veteran who Trump tapped as defense secretary. You actually heard Hegseth's voice in the montage of attacks against Bishop Garrison earlier.

He's the one who called Garrison the Magger Purge Man. So if Hegseth becomes the next defense secretary, he said he's going to eliminate DEI programs like the one Bishop Garrison was part of and maybe get rid of these anti-extremist efforts as well. But we'll have to see if Hegseth and Trump's other nominations survive a confirmation hearing.

With Republicans' control in both the House and Senate, they very well might.

We're also left wondering if the military missed its chance to hold people accountable for what happened that day. These are things that Lauren and I will be keeping an eye on over the next months and years of the Trump administration.

Well, from everything I'm hearing, the certification of the 2024 election happening tomorrow will be very safe. It's now considered a national security event. The current director of Homeland Security has said it will have Super Bowl-level security.

Thank you.

So there were clearly people committing violence or wanting to see violence. And there were hundreds encouraging it, pushing it forward. While hundreds more, you know, they were just kind of watching this all take place. So there were people of all sorts of motivations. And we should say not everyone destroyed property or was physically violent, but most of them had one thing in common, Ayesha.

They believed Donald Trump's lie that the election was stolen.

You know, it really wasn't much of a surprise. I know that militias and far-right groups like the Oath Keepers or Proud Boys, they often target veterans for recruitment, in large part because of their military training. But again, not everyone there was part of those groups or committing violence. Earlier in the day, as I was walking through the crowds, I noticed there were a number of people with

law enforcement or military ties. I saw some flags with the Marine insignia in a ball cap or a sweatshirt with the Marines Eagle Globe and anchor emblem.

And we wanted to know more, so we reached out to Michael Jensen. He's a researcher at the University of Maryland, and he studies domestic terrorism. And he found that nearly every branch of the military was represented at the Capitol that day.

So most of the people with military ties that day were veterans. And one of them you may have heard of, who Republican politicians have talked about a lot, and it's Ashley Babbitt. She was shot and killed by a Capitol Police officer as she lunged through a shattered window near the House floor. Babbitt was an Air Force veteran.

You know, it's hard to say. We asked a lot of people that question. You know, some Marines told us there's a sense the Marines tend to be pretty traditional, more physically aggressive, lean more politically conservative than maybe some of the other branches.

The researcher, Michael Jensen, wasn't that surprised. He's been tracking instances of political violence in the military going back 35 years to 1990. In fact, there's been more than 700 documented cases, stuff like starting physical altercations at protests, plotting violence against public figures. And those cases have been rising year after year leading up to January 6th.

And as for the Marines, the Marine Corps has the second most cases of former or current members who are extremists, second only to the Army, which is the largest branch. This despite the Marines being the smallest fighting force.

He's a third-generation Marine and really a high-achieving one. And he was promoted to sergeant early. He has a Navy commendation medal, and he got an internship offer from the National Security Agency to do intelligence work.

And they see this crowd surging toward the Capitol and decide to join it. I asked Josh why. So he thought it was OK to be in the building.

Of course, we know from being there that the scene wasn't as calm as Josh just described.

And most notably, the three of them help someone else put a MAGA hat on a statue of Martin Luther King Jr. in the Capitol Rotunda, and they take a picture of it.

You know, it's a really hard question to answer. We spoke with Josh for hours on two occasions. And He cops up to the statue thing, but really downplays or even sometimes denies everything else he did that day. And we asked him that same question. How do you see yourself? Were you a protester or an extremist?

You know, maybe that's true. After all, he wasn't beating up cops or breaking off table legs like some of the other people who were there.

And that question is what a lot of other people were wrestling with, too. People all the way up to the highest levels of the Pentagon.

Well, you know, it didn't take long at all for the military to recognize a potential problem in the ranks. President Biden's pick for Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was sworn in just a couple of weeks after January 6th.

So Austin came up with a plan. It started with something called a stand down. And a stand down in military speak is, OK, we're going to stop what we're doing. And we're just going to have a training day to remind service members about what they can't do while on active duty. Dissident activities, overtly political activities, extremist activities.

The reactions coming out of these training sessions and from senior officials, they were kind of mixed.

Many service members didn't understand what extremism even means.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. Over the winter, NPR's Dia Hadid was reporting in Syria. Rebel fighters had just overthrown the brutal dictatorship of Bashar al-Assad. In her weeks of reporting, Dia discovered something shocking. It wasn't just men and women who were imprisoned by the Assad regime.

When we come back, Dia visits a crowded orphanage that took in the children of detained mothers. Stay with us.

We're back with NPR's Dia Hadid and her story about the missing children of Syria.

That's very sweet of your girls.

Thank you so much, Dia, for this reporting and for shining a light and being a voice for the missing during this time of so much uncertainty.

That's NPR international correspondent Dia Hadid. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yan. It was edited by Jenny Schmidt and Vincent Nee. Maggie Luther mastered the episode. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our senior supervising producer, Liana Simstrom. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

Well, I mean, and rightfully so. How did you investigate these allegations?

And what did you find out?

Children were also taken, and many remain unaccounted for. Today on The Sunday Story, what happened to the disappeared children of Syria? Dia Hadid brings us the story from her reporting in Damascus after the break. Stay with us.

Did you manage to speak to any parents whose children were taken away?

So Dia, I just want to interrupt you here. Do you have a sense of the scale of this? How many children were being taken away from their mothers like Hiba?

Security placement children. It sounds so bureaucratic.

But these children aren't orphans as, you know, as I understand it, as, you know, these are children who still have mothers and in many cases also fathers who were still alive.

OK, so it sounds like Syrian orphanages were always pretty full of children, sometimes abandoned by their own parents. But then there was this shift during the civil war. They started taking in children whose parents had not given them up, but the parents had been forcefully detained by intelligence agents.

Dia, how did people first come to know that these orphanages were taking in children this way?

I'm Aisha Roscoe. This is a Sunday story from Up First. NPR's Dia Hadid joins me now to talk about her reporting from Damascus. Dia, I know you were sent to Syria in the chaotic weeks following the Assad regime's fall. How did you come across this story about missing children?

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is the Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. Tonight, Hollywood's biggest stars gather for the Academy Awards, the annual celebration of all things movies. If you've been listening to the Sunday Story for a while, you know I love horror movies, so I was happy to see the horror genre getting some love this year.

We're back with the Sunday story from up first as we hear more Oscar predictions from the team over at Pop Culture Happy Hour.

So another note I want to make is that we are going to be making these next predictions before the Screen Actor Guild Awards have come out at the time of this recording. So ordinarily, as I did with the best picture, I would have kind of like dug into my back and looked, oh, who won SAG Awards? And that would have helped inform my opinions here. We're just out here being brave.

We're being brave. We're out here naked. Just sheets of the wind. We're doing that.

I have no idea. So let's move on to the acting categories and let's start with the lead actress category. Stephen, who is nominated here?

All right. And I'm pretty sure that we all think Demi Moore is going to walk away with this award. Linda, why do you think she'll win?

I think I have a sense of who you're thinking here.

Solid pick. Steven, who do you think should win?

Yeah, I get that. I mean, Stephen, you and I are aligned. I also would... really love to see Mikey Madison take this home. I've been a huge fan of hers ever since she was in Better Things, the great Pamela Adlon show as one of her daughters.

I've seen some criticisms of the film as being like a movie where we don't learn much about the Mikey Madison character and that she's just this one note, you know, sex worker. And I disagree with that hard. I think that Just because we don't learn every single detail about her backstory, that doesn't mean that she's not a fully realized character.

I think that there are just these so many great moments and interactions that hint at both her social class, her status in life. And I think the ending actually is one of the great endings. But look, we're not here to deliberate that. I'm just here to say that I loved Mikey Madison. And look, I'd be happy if Cynthia Erivo won. I'd also be happy if Demi Moore won.

We're back with the Sunday story from Up First, and today we're sharing an excerpt of an episode from our friends at Pop Culture Happy Hour. It features all of their predictions of who will be the big winners at tonight's ceremony.

All right. Well, let's move on to the nominations for actor in a leading role. Glenn, why don't you set that up for us?

All right. So I'm going to go first here because I guess I'm the only one who is convinced that Timothy is probably going to pull off a Rami Malek here. I was looking at sort of this entire crop of nominees. And unlike with the best actress category, there's not really any that are like transformative in like the traditional way. In the Gary Oldman as Winston Churchill category.

Or, you know, The Whale, Brendan Fraser, like that kind of thing. DiCaprio and The Revenant. Like, that's not happening here. And so I think for me, we can never underestimate the enthusiasm of the Academy's boomer and raucous membership. Mm-hmm. as well as its tendency to love actors who play real people.

Again, Rami Malek in Bohemian Rhapsody, Will Smith in King Richard, Gary Oldman, Cillian Murphy, Daniel Day-Lewis, Colin Firth, on and on and on. Like over the last 15, 20 years, a lot of the winners in this category have been playing real people. And I don't know if the Dylan cosplay on SNL hurt or helped Siawe's chances. I think maybe it's possible they just kind of neutralized them.

I feel as though Timothy has a very good shot and I would not be surprised to see him wind up with the Oscar.

a misunderstood witch, an unknowable singer-songwriter, a dejected TV personality, and the dean of cardinals will all walk into the Dolby Theater on Sunday night. Because it's that time of year again. Yes, it's the Oscars.

I'm the only one here. I'm standing alone here on my Club Chalamet boat.

Yeah. Look, in a just world, Clarence Macklin, who is one of the other performers in this movie and a formerly incarcerated person who contributed to the storytelling of this film, would have also been up here in this category because he, to me, gives just as good of a performance. But I am glad that Coleman Domingo is here and I am with you both, Glenn and Linda, that I think he should win.

And I'm Ayesha Harris. And on this episode of NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour, we're offering up a guide to this year's Oscars. Joining us today are our fellow Pop Culture Happy Hour hosts, Linda Holmes. Hey, Linda.

So it sounds like Glenn, Linda, and I are for Coleman Domingo.

A late stage change in the numbers. Four for Coleman Domingo.

That brings us to the end of this big Oscars extravaganza show. Glenn Weldon, Stephen Thompson, and Linda Holmes, thanks so much for being here. We all owe each other beers at this point. Oh, absolutely. We'll make it happen.

Fears and fights.

Thank you, friend. If you'd like to hear more discussion about this year's Oscars, check out the full episode on the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and Andrew Mambo. It was edited by Jessica Reedy and Jenny Schmidt. The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan and Liana Simstrom.

Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. Up First will be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

And Glenn Weldon. Hey, Glenn. Hey, Ayesha. It's great to be here with all of you to talk about the Oscars for our big Oscar show. We are going to obviously spend some time on Best Picture first since that's the big ticket award of the night. And a couple big blockbusters earned nominations. Stephen, do you want to set those up for us?

I knew that was going to be the moment that we chose.

I was definitely thankful for those recaps for Dune Part 1 before I watched this one.

Yes, yes. Well, okay. There's also a handful of smaller but no less ambitious movies that were nominated. And to some degree, I think This crop, we all really liked and admired quite a few of these. So, Linda, can you give us the rundown on these films?

The film The Substance was about the terrifying outcome of an age-reversing drug, and it's been nominated in five categories, including Best Picture and Best Actress. And I also saw Conclave. It's a visually stunning film. is amazing. It's about the selection of a new pope. I really love that one. And of course, I had to watch Wicked with my kids. We had a lot of fun.

Those are all very different, but like I said, very ambitious in their own ways. So it's nice to see them in the mix here for sure. Of course, we've got the more traditional Best Picture nominees here. Glenn, tell us about this group.

Yeah. And, you know, for the past several years, we've seen international features nominated in the Best Picture category. And so this year, I'm Still Here actually earned a nomination. It's set in 1970s Brazil when it was under a military dictatorship. And it tells the story of a mother dealing with the disappearance of her politician husband.

And finally, we've got two movies that have been making lots of waves.

Okay. We'll talk a little bit more about that in a second. But they've been on the scene since way back at Cannes. The Cannes Film Festival last spring. Stephen, what have we got here?

Yeah. Okay, well, before we truly dig into who we think will and should win here, it's important for us to sort of briefly touch on the controversies that have arisen during awards season. There's the big one. Very soon after the nominations were announced in January... Some old racist and Islamophobic tweets made by Amelia Perez star Carla Sofia Gascon resurfaced by journalist Sarah Hagee.

Now, in those tweets, the actress used slurs and other disparaging language to refer to a wide range of demographics and people, including Muslims, Chinese people, and George Floyd. Gascon apologized via an official Netflix statement, but continued to discuss it in interviews, and she suggested there was some kind of larger conspiracy at work against her.

Now, to a lesser degree, the Amelia Perez team has also faced some flack for using AI cloning to widen Gascon's singing range. Amelia Perez led the Oscars race this year with 13 nominations. But I'm actually curious if you all think that these controversies have impacted this film's chance of taking home Best Picture. Linda, let's start with you and what you think will win.

If you haven't seen it, you don't have to look to the western sky. That's in the movie. It's kind of a prequel to The Wizard of Oz and it's got a whopping 10 nominations this year. Beyond that, I haven't been able to see many of the movies this year because I'm always working. But our friends over at Pop Culture Happy Hour have seen them all. It's their job.

Just to back up a little bit, in case you haven't heard about the AI controversy around the Brutalists, leads Adrian Brody and Felicity Jones were reportedly, their voices were fed into some AI software. And director Brady Korbe said in a statement that only their Hungarian dialogue was enhanced by the AI.

But also the film's editor said that generative AI was used as inspiration for some of the architectural drawings that are done by Adrian Brody's character. So, Stephen, what are your thoughts on what will win?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, one thing I will note is that it's also important to remember that the Oscars are ultimately decided through rank choice voting. And so it doesn't have to be everyone's favorite film. It just has to be enough people's maybe even second favorite film.

Yeah, and that's where you and I align, Glenn. I also think Onora is going to win. It won the Producers Guild of America Awards first. And since 2010, every winner of the PGA award has also won best picture with three exceptions. And then there was also one year where there was a tie between Gravity and 12 Years a Slave. 12 Years a Slave wound up winning the Oscars. So like,

I feel like the odds were kind of in Anora's favor, but we shall see. So we all said who we think will win, but like, who do we think should win? For me, I think Anora should win. I think it is, to me, the correct choice in part because it subverts expectations around genre.

You think it's going to be some sort of like sort of crime movie, but it's also a family comedy and a screwball comedy and a drama. And it just feels like a movie that's of the moment in a way that most of the other films in this pack do not land for me. It normalizes this depiction of sex work.

It also has this very matter-of-fact take on capitalism that I don't think is either subtle, but it's not preachy either. It's just very resonant.

I don't know. Well, Linda, I know you were not a huge fan of this, and we don't have to get into why. And also, I love that we have different opinions on this show. So I am curious as to what you think should win.

And we're going to hear their predictions coming up right after the break.

I would be so happy to see this one. It has stayed with me months later, and I think it's just such a beautiful film that I need to rewatch. I definitely need to rewatch, and I think it rewards rewatch. And we should also note that Nickel Boys is actually released by Amazon MGM Studios, and Amazon supports NPR and Pace to distribute some of our content.

You're listening to The Sunday Story. More Oscar predictions when we come back.

Wow. I mean, that's incredible because anybody would want to find a little dinosaur piece, right? So how did Ken first discover this site in New Jersey?

I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and you're listening to the Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. About 66 million years ago, something huge happened on our planet. It's known as the fifth mass extinction event, and it wiped out some 50% of plants and animals on Earth. You probably know the basics of the story, an asteroid struck and killed off all the dinosaurs.

Well, what did he find?

Yes, absolutely. Let's listen.

But recently, scientists have been uncovering more details about what really happened at that pivotal moment in history. Mantua, New Jersey, is the site of a new paleontology museum and fossil dig site where scientists are discovering exciting new clues about what happened in the days and even hours after the asteroid hit.

The Edelman Fossil Park and Museum of Rowan University opened this spring to the public, and now anyone who visits has the chance to go down into the quarry to find fossils themselves. When we come back, we go to the fossil site and find out what happened on that fateful day. Stay with us.

I did not realize it happened that fast. Like that is shocking. I thought it was like months and maybe a year or two and that the world could get that hot that fast. I mean, it, I really, it makes me think of like the land before time, you know, that, you know, the movie.

It's just like, oh my gosh. So, so, so what's the, what's the bigger picture here? Like what does Ken Lacovara represent? hope people come away with after visiting this museum and the fossil site.

OK, well, that is a beautiful sentiment. Right? Yes. I have to ask, when you were there, did you find a fossil there?

Yeah. Oh, yes. Let's do that. So what do I do?

That's amazing. Oh, that's that's that's crazy. Right. I mean, 66 million years old and you're holding it in your hands. I mean, you know that like to be able to touch history like that, it has to be really cool. Like what like what effect did it have on you?

We're back with The Sunday Story, and I'm here with Manoush Zomorodi, host of the TED Radio Hour, to talk about her reporting from the Edelman Fossil Park and what it can teach us. Manoush, welcome to the show. Oh, thanks, Aisha.

Well, thank you, Manoush, for sharing this with us. I learned a lot. Oh, good. Yes, I did, too. You have to take your kids, Aisha. It's amazing. I will. I'll try to convince them. I got family in Jersey, so we'll see. Perfect. Yes. That's Manoush Zomorodi. She is the host of NPR's TED Radio Hour.

To learn more about paleontologist Ken Lacovara's work at the Edelman Fossil Park and Museum, check out their episode, The Day the Dinosaurs Dived. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo and Harsha Nahata, with help from James Delahousie. It was edited by Liana Simstrom and Sanaz Meshkenpour. Jimmy Keeley mastered the episode.

The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan and Jennifer Schmidt. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

So you visited the dig site and the museum before it was open to the public. You got a little sneak preview and you got a tour from Ken Lacovara, the renowned paleontologist who founded the museum. What was that like?

I'm Aisha Roscoe. This is the Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. So, I'm a real city slicker, okay? I am not someone who you're going to catch out on a hiking trail, and I don't like to rough it. Not at all. Wherever I go, there needs to be running water, there needs to be a working toilet, and there should be some Wi-Fi, okay?

Mott's a reporter with Montana Public Radio, and he's produced the podcast, The Wide Open, which explores the country's complicated and changing relationship with the Endangered Species Act. He joins me now. Hi, Nick.

You're listening to the Sunday Story. Montana Public Radio's Nick Mott is with us talking about his podcast, The Wide Open. So we just heard Buff Bolin describing the origin of the Endangered Species Act. And Nick, you pointed out that it was a Republican who signed it into law, President Richard Nixon, and that at the time it had broad support from both sides of the aisle.

So, Nick, I'm curious, why and how did you get interested in reporting on endangered species?

OK, so tell us about this little fish. So this isn't like a fish you fry up and eat, I don't think.

So the environmentalists, they won that battle, right? Yeah.

Is the snail darter still with us?

It sounds like the snail darter laid out a blueprint, which is to try to block projects or development by finding a species that is endangered and saying, you can't build this pipeline here or you can't build this housing development here or what have you.

Well, it does seem like, you know, when the Endangered Species Act was put into place, there was a vision for kind of probably, as you said, protecting these iconic animals. But now it does protect a very, you know, any endangered species. And so like, how do we make sense of that?

And you have this partisan divide with Republicans looking at the Endangered Species Act one way and Democrats looking at it another.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your reporting. And please stay safe out there on those hiking trails.

To hear more of Nick's podcast, The Wide Open, you can listen on the NPR One app or on your favorite podcast player. The Wide Open is from Montana Public Radio and the Montana Media Lab. It's produced and edited by Mary Auld, Corin Cates Carney, Jewel Banville, Lee Banville, and Lacey Roberts. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo and edited by Jenny Schmidt.

It was engineered by Kwesi Lee. The rest of The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan, Liana Simstrom, and our executive producer, Irene Noguchi. A special thanks to the folks at Montana Public Radio who helped to put together the wide open podcast. I'm Ayesha Roscoe. Up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

So your podcast covers this really wide net, exploring what it means to try to balance the needs of threatened and endangered wildlife with the needs of humans like those ranchers. You start your journey in your own backyard, so to speak, up in the northern Rockies. I do wonder, like, have you encountered grizzly bears up close yet? And if so, what is that like?

And are grizzly bears the ones that will try to fight humans? Are they the ones that run away?

OK, so it's more complicated. I got to keep that in mind clearly. But go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

But even though I'm not a nature girl, I do like the idea of the wilderness, and I do like to see it from afar through a window in a nice heated cabin. And you know, the thing of it is, is that the wild animals that we think of often when we're thinking of wilderness, a lot of those animals would not be here at all if it weren't for this 51-year-old federal law, the Endangered Species Act.

And so as soon as you sprayed, she ran away? Yeah.

Was that your closest encounter with a bear? I mean, I hope it was your closest encounter because I wouldn't want you to get any closer.

And does it make you think about the relationship between the grizzly bears and humans and I guess also kind of the policies to try to deal with that?

You're listening to The Sunday Story. Stay with us.

We're back with the Sunday story and we're talking to Nick Mott of Montana Public Radio about his reporting on the Endangered Species Act. Nick, your series digs into some pretty key moments in the history around the Endangered Species Act. But the place that you start is at the very beginning with how the act actually became law. Let's start there.

The Endangered Species Act is said to be one of the strongest pieces of environmental legislation we have on the books. It's been credited with saving the lives of grizzly bears and wolves that were hunted to the brink of extinction, bald eagle populations that were decimated by pesticides, and woodpeckers affected by deforestation.

But there are also plenty of critics of the law, people who say it has gone too far and has caused grave harm to communities and economies across the nation. Nick Mott lives in a place where the debate over the Endangered Species Act is both relevant and very raw, Montana.

I think it's good for the Mon Valley, actually. I think it's going to keep jobs there, grow it. They're also going to upgrade the facility. So I think that's a good thing as far as air quality goes, hopefully.

See how closely you followed the week's news and have some fun by listening to the podcast, Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, the NPR News Quiz every Saturday. It's available in the NPR app and wherever you get your podcasts.

President Trump revamped his national security team at the start of this month when he named Marco Rubio as his national security advisor.

The National Security Council provides advice to the president on the biggest diplomatic and security decisions.

And tomorrow marks five years since George Floyd was murdered by a Minneapolis police officer. His death triggered large-scale protests across the country. and a reckoning with racism in the U.S.

But now, five years later, the country is deeply divided on issues of race and policing. NPR's domestic extremism correspondent Odette Youssef is here to talk about how such a dramatic change has happened. Good morning. Good morning. It's kind of amazing to think about where we are now and that Floyd was killed five years ago. When you look back, how do you see that time?

We'll say more about that. What was brewing at that time that you say helped lead to the divisions that we see today?

Officials tell NPR that dozens of staff were fired yesterday afternoon. I'm Ayesha Roscoe.

Odette, we've also heard from the Trump administration and others who feel like the fixation on diversity, equity and inclusion was divisive in and of itself. And that if Americans focus less on issues like the country's history of slavery and Jim Crow, that people would relate better to each other.

That's NPR's Odette Youssef. Thank you so much for joining us.

And that's Up First for Saturday, May 24th, 2025. I'm Ayesha Roscoe.

Meanwhile, our friends at NPR's Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me take making fun of the news very seriously. Each week they create a news quiz and we want to give Up First listeners the chance to play along.

I'm Ayesha Roscoe.

President-elect Donald Trump has announced his choice for Treasury Secretary.

He's defended tariffs, which many in the business community oppose.

And Florida's Surgeon General urges communities to stop adding fluoride to their drinking water.

Stay with us. We have the news you need to start your weekend. One top Trump nominee for a cabinet position has withdrawn.

For decades, water systems have been adding fluoride to water to prevent tooth decay.

It's a radical policy change that's also on the agenda for Donald Trump's pick for health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

And he's named picks for many other offices at a rapid rate, all with plenty of time before inauguration.

And that's up first for Saturday, November 23rd. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

Our producer is Danny Hensel, with help from Andrew Craig, Elena Torek, and Martin Patience.

Our editors are Dee Parvaz, Carrie Feibel, Kara Platoni, Shannon Rose, and Matthew Sherman.

Evie Stone is our Senior Supervising Editor. Sarah Lucy Oliver is our Executive Producer.

Tomorrow on the Sunday Story, how does a disagreement turn into a tearful argument? We'll hear about what happens in our brains during verbal conflict and how we can navigate those situations without losing control.

Scott, me and you can really show how to talk without conflict because I feel like that's what we do every Saturday and Sunday.

Yes.

Yes.

Our editors are Shannon Rhodes, Miguel Macias. Martha Ann Overland, and Melissa Gray. Michael Radcliffe is our director, with support from technical director Andy Huther. And the engineers who help us out, David Greenberg, Zach Coleman, and Arthur Holliday-Lorent.

Tomorrow on The Sunday Story, with the recent arrest of former Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte for crimes against humanity, NPR's Emily Fang takes a look at the aftermath of his brutal war on drugs.

And it's taken on a new urgency this week amid a showdown between a federal judge, James Boasberg, and the Trump administration over its use of the Alien Enemies Act to deport Venezuelans it claims belong to a criminal gang.

The Department of Homeland Security is making cuts to its civil rights and immigration oversight offices. Saying these offices obstruct immigration enforcement. I'm Sarah McCammon. I'm Ayesha Roscoe, and this is Up First from NPR News. Coming up, NPR's Ron Elving on the latest news from the Trump administration. Travelers to the U.S.

are worried about being interrogated at checkpoints, searched and detained for days.

Also, Sudan's military says it's retaken the seat of the country's government. Could this be a turning point in the civil war there? Stay with us. We have the news you need to start your weekend.

Border officials might ask the purpose of your visit and how long you intend to stay and then wave you through.

Michelle Hackman covers immigration for The Wall Street Journal and joins us now. Welcome. Thanks for having me. So in your latest article, you mentioned border officials are using aggressive questioning tactics with visa holders and tourists. What are you seeing?

Obviously, I'm not a lawyer and not privy to everything that ICE knows. But why not just detain? deport someone who has problems with their visas immediately or just turn them around at the airport? Why shackle and chain them and keep them in ICE detention?