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164 appearances 7 recordings 4 series first heard Nov 2024 last heard May 2025

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The Home Service Expert Podcast · Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss · 13 Dec 2024 podcast

So I think the mythology of kids don't take no for an answer with their parents, it's not they don't take no for an answer. They've seen over and over again that once a parent has said no, they're more open to listening. And so don't be deterred because dad or mom said no. They feel protected. They're actually willing to listen to what the kid has to say at that point.

And I'm seeing it with adults across the board. And so the guy that was at our training went from 12% to 60%. Just no other change other than switching from yes to no in the way they form their questions. Like a ridiculous jump. And the funny thing about it is like everybody comes to work for me. You know, I work on them to learn all the skills. Some take more practice.

Like instantly within two weeks, they all got no oriented questions down. It's now a bad time to talk. Would you be against? They're hitting me with them constantly. Now, why do they pick those up so quick? Because they'd started using it with their family and friends and got an instantaneous increase in their life.

A massive amount of friction in their life disappeared the moment they switched from yes to no. And that's why you pick up a skill, because you get feedback that it works. And that's the simplest one to get the most immediate feedback on.

Well, so first of all, the way you're putting it, and we talked about this earlier, intention has a smell. So your intent from the very beginning and everything that you do and your approach and approach that you teach is to have a customer that's happy with everything you've done and want to call you back if they need you for anything else or refer you.

So you're driving for a long-term relationship one way or another, even if they never need the garage door ever again. If the neighbor does, what are they going to say to the neighbor? Raving fans, hopefully. Yeah, you need raving fans. So that's your intention, which means by definition, you want a long-term relationship. You want to be thought of well.

So fair is another word that's often weaponized against people. And mostly, you know, giving you a fair offer. Or what you're doing is very unfair. Like one of my favorites, and it's in the book, a number of years ago, NFL is locked out. Players Association trying to get the NFL owners to open their books. What do the NFL owners say? We've given the players a fair offer.

So that puts everybody, the thought in everybody's mind, maybe the players are being unfair. It puts a thought in their mind. You know, the players started to fragment a little bit as a result. But it can be used in that context. Look, if it was a fair offer, open your books and prove it. You know, I'm not saying it's not fair. Just show me.

And to try to gain the upper hand in a contentious negotiation, there are people that would say, I've given you a fair offer, which means if you reject that you're unfair, you're the one. It's an emotional button that you're pressing. Now, your approach is to lay it out from the very beginning that you want to be fair. And so from the very beginning, you're inviting them

to tell you where you've been unfair. And that's a completely different set of circumstances. So it's mostly context driven and the people that are manipulators will use fairness because if I toss it out there, it's gonna get you to question yourself. And the last thing you wanna do is be unfair.

I think it's a good start because you got to get some practice actually getting it out of your mouth. And then, you know, imagining it is helpful. But the actual feel of doing it, whether it's a real person there, at the same time. You know, you're taking it up a notch each time. Now, ideally, in your role play, you don't have a counterpart who's got an agenda to prove that you're wrong.

And so that doesn't help. And we run into that sometimes when we're doing a training because the mirror thing that you mentioned before, repeating just, you know, a couple of words, there'll be somebody in training that'll be like, I'm going to prove this doesn't work. And no matter how much mirroring or any skill that gets used on them, they just go, yep, nope, yep, nope. One word answer.

It's not opening up at all. So you got to have somebody working with you that's not there to prove you wrong. You need them encouraging you. And it helps to have somebody doing it live. And then you practice it a couple times. And you got to go out and try it in real life. In real life, there's real life stuff all over the place.

I think the biggest thing in practice is people imagine getting it wrong. When in point of fact, in real life, if you get these skills wrong, it works in a different way. And it tells you that getting it wrong ain't bad. Like I practice on a TSA people all the time. Cause I go through airports all the time, you know, and they're there and they get tough jobs.

So I'm rolling through TSA one day and I realized I haven't, you know, thrown a label on verbal observation on anybody. Here's my bags coming out. I look at this guy. He's kind of standing there like it's just an average day. And I go, tough day? Because usually it is a tough day. But you need the data showing you. And he just, so I missed. I was wrong. And he reacts, like shakes it off.

Like, no, but not angry. And I go, oh, just another day, huh? He goes, yeah, it's just another day. So that was practice for me. And then as it turns out, because I got that practice in at that moment, five minutes later, phone rings, call, I got to take. Normally I don't take calls when I'm going through the airport because you deserve my entire attention. Right.

And if I'm in an airport, you ain't got my entire attention. But this guy's really hard to get on a phone and a good friend. So I talked to him anyway. If I hadn't warmed up on the TSA guy and missed earlier, I wouldn't have been as sharp as I was in that call.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, Ed Kottemel's book, the guy who founded Pixar, his book Creativity, Inc., he drills into that, the fear of failure, a lot. One of the reasons that he lays out, which I think, like when you're in grade school, if you fail, like your teachers, like there's so many penalties for failing, right?

then I think it's drilled into us early on that this failure is this horrible thing. And so we get out in the real world, we realize just on percentages, if you discard the failures, you move on to the successes if you don't let them hold your back. But we got all this conditioning, however long we were in school, that every failure was horrible.

And if we didn't have a certain amount of fear of it to begin with, in our DNA, what we're wired with, then much of the educational system reinforces it. So by the time we're adults, we have a hard time with it.

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