Keith Payne
speaker
387 appearances
1 recordings
1 series
first heard Nov 2024
last heard Nov 2024
Keith Payne’s voice in public audio — every appearance, attributed to the second.
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Yeah. And then drove it away to college. Drove fast on his way to college.
And then also as you're kind of explaining your ability to click back into your previous worldview or mindset, I relate to you deeply. I feel like I have a very similar kind of background in a working class. My family's all from Kentucky. You grew up there.
As much as I love this broken ladder book, which felt so academic, then learning this personal story about you, I thought, oh, likely why it appealed to me so much that we have this.
In a sense. Were you triggered by the hillbilly elegy? I hated that book. And I was very vocally against it.
Everything you just read was the proof for this theory. I'm going to drop on the end of it. I didn't even think the memoir stuff was real. I'm like, that's not really how it works. I think you've heard these stories, but I don't think you were there for these stories. I don't know. That was my hiccup about it.
But Broken Ladder, I just want to talk about a couple of things, Broken Ladder, because they stuck with me so deeply. And I think they do work their way into your new book in a lot of ways. But tell us about what happens on airplanes. Yeah. If you remember that data, I know it's been a while. Right. But I think that stuff's fascinating.
What can I tell you as someone who's in those seats now, later in life, I'm embarrassed. That's why I don't look at you. I'm sure you imbue from me that I think I'm better than you and don't want to look at you. But I feel ashamed that I am there and you're not.
You don't have to have four seconds of feeling less than in route to your seat.
It goes further if there's not a class distinction on the plane, then it drops even to its lowest point. Right. But I think the most salient point that you end that example with is that you would be inclined to position that as a story between the haves and the have-nots. And that in fact, it's the story of the haves and the have-more. People who are flying are already the haves by every metric.
Yeah, and then even more shocking than that is that abject poverty that we would measure below the poverty line, the results of that in your later life outcomes, your life expectancy, your educational attainment, your incarceration rate, your health, we would think those would be really, really adversely affected by poverty.
But in fact, people who perceive that they're poor have worse outcomes than people who are abjectly poor. but don't perceive themselves as poor.
Well, let me ask you this. Are your outcomes worse if you feel poor versus you are poor but don't feel poor?
yeah and where it's like most painful is when people are living in the shadow of these huge gaps like there are cities that it's dispersed much more evenly and then there's really dramatic cities this would be i would imagine one of the top cities for that oh yeah la new york these big cities that are wealthy are also highly unequal it's
I think the suburbs mitigate it, though.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally where we're at across the street is a dramatically different socioeconomic bracket. It's 13 feet away.
There are societal differences around the world where if a population of people tends to up compare or down compare, that changes radically depending on where you're at in the world. We're a big up compare society, right? We're always looking and comparing ourselves to people above us.
But there are many that would compare themselves to people below and then their kind of mental health benefits from that greatly. So when I was reading the book, so I agree with you, it's a huge problem. I've experienced it personally. Then the solution for it, my question is, do we think we can augment and change reality to suit everyone?
Or do we think we need tools to help us with this psychological hiccup? that if I have an ice cream cone, I'm great as long as the guy next to me doesn't have one. But if someone's eating a banana split next to me, now I'm miserable. Does everyone need a banana split? Or do we need to figure out how to stop that line of thinking and have tools in place?
Well, and then I would add, too, that they have access to things that other people don't have access to. So you can't climb the ladder.
Yeah, not Jordan, but the dude who scored five points more than you in the game, maybe.
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