Liam Donovan

I think you have to sell the Republican party.

alignment with the cause and state of Israel on its own terms, in terms of like an America first, like why does this benefit America?

And I think that's what Vance is exploring in terms of explaining support for Israel in all its forms in a way that is much more of like a transactional, like this is good for... But Kenny, I'm actually, I wonder if you can hold that together because I think I maybe see this one differently than you do.

Oh, I mean, the ugliness is going to happen.

But I think that's also, as you're looking at what Massey's doing, Marjorie Taylor Greene's doing, even what Tucker's doing, like these aren't necessarily electoral plays.

I think the political economy that exists now is you can have your career as a podcaster, as just a general media gadfly on YouTube or otherwise.

And I think that in a weird way, whereas your backbench house gadfly might've aspired to higher office or other things,

you know, in cycles past.

Now, what you're off ramp is probably just keeping a hold on this audience.

I think we totally agree on that.

But I would say if you look at the individual personalities and habits of these folks in particular, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, when she broke with Donald Trump, that was not a bid for, you know, like because she thought that was going to benefit her.

That was...

There's an oppositional element to that.

There are personal circumstances around that.

Massey, if you know Thomas Massey, and I do, and like him at some level, he wants to stir up trouble.

He does not want to turn this into a movement.

I think this goes back to the Tucker thing.

I'm sure Tucker has lots of interesting ambitions and wants to have max optionality, but I don't know that this is about a broader...

I think he'd be formidable and would... Do you think he'll run for president?

I don't expect him to, and I don't know what would happen.