Megan

The morning of the 30th started out like any other morning.

After just two years, Megan filed for divorce and left him. When you moved out, in your mind, that was it? That was it. You never had a second thought about getting back together? Never a second thought. Scott reverted to old habits, pleading with her in multiple, often lengthy letters.

Letters that took an ominous turn when Scott got wind that Megan was getting it off with a man he knew.

He was, even by his accounts, quite committed to pursuing her and getting her back.

But persistence seemed to turn to obsession in December 1996, during that weekend that David and Megan spent together at her apartment.

When David got home Sunday morning to find his house vandalized, he called police. But he and his friend Craig Foster thought they already knew who was responsible.

Craig advised David to back off from Megan until her divorce was final.

That Tuesday night, David was found dead. And within hours, Megan's estranged husband was talking to the police.

On Wednesday, Scott left Megan one last desperate message.

Three days after David Coffin's body was found, Scott Davis was arrested.

The man who claimed to be a victim was now a murder suspect.

And you felt the case was strong?

Attorney Bruce Morris began representing Scott Davis the day he became a murder suspect.

Morris was hired by psychiatrist Dave Davis, Scott's father. Have you never met anyone who was acting normally all along and snapped?

But Detective Rick Chambers says Scott came unhinged when his soon-to-be ex-wife Megan started showing serious interest in another man.

Chambers believes Scott Davis killed David Coffin, then tried to cover his tracks by inventing a fictitious assailant.

Police used phone records and witness statements to create a timeline, showing that Scott had ample opportunity to execute the crimes. On Saturday night, they believe while David was with Megan, Scott ransacked David's home and took a few choice treasures.

On Monday night, they say, Scott returned, this time to confront David.

Then on Tuesday night, Chambers says Scott returned again and set the fire.

But the timeline had a problem. David's stolen Porsche was also set on fire. It was found Tuesday morning, miles from where Scott was seen at work.

After 90 days in jail, Scott posted a half million dollar bond and was released. Can you definitively answer the question, did Scott Davis kill David Coffin?

The pending case against Scott Davis had other issues. A gun taken in the burglary was found near David's body, but was too badly burned to have any prints on it.

A search of Scott's house and car also came up empty.

The district attorney chose not to seek an indictment. And in June 1998, 18 months after Scott Davis was arrested, the charges against him were dropped.

Scott's divorce from Megan Lee was now final, but Megan wasn't taking any chances. Megan says she felt she had to get out of town. First, she moved to Minneapolis, but she still didn't feel safe. Eventually, she moved here, halfway around the world to Sydney, Australia, which is about as far away from Atlanta and from Scott Davis as she could get.

Who do you think is responsible for David Coffin's death?

Scott also left Atlanta and moved to Palo Alto, California.

Where he set up shop as a computer consultant.

But Scott Davis's newfound freedom was not sitting well with David Coffin Sr.

Did you ever suspect it could have been someone else?

You've always... No question.

Coffin made relentless efforts to keep the case active. Were you pressuring the DA?

He offered rewards, substantial rewards. The reward went from $100,000 to $200,000 to $300,000. Correct. But as the years passed, little new evidence surfaced. Megan was now happily married to an Australian man and had two children, but she was never able to shake her past.

Scott, meanwhile, was getting ambitious. In 2003, California's governor was recalled, sparking a wild free-for-all election. San Jose Mercury News reporter Josh Kwan got a tip to check out one of the 135 hopefuls.

A candidate named Scott Davis.

When Quan asked Scott about his arrest for David Coffin's murder, Scott told him the charges had been dropped. There was no evidence against him.

With his past outed, Scott gave up his run for governor, but he was now under new scrutiny in Atlanta. Would you describe him as a smart person?

Enter prosecutor Sheila Ross. She was heading a cold case unit and taking a fresh look at the old evidence.

The state had virtually no new evidence against Scott Davis, but there was now a very determined prosecutor.

This time, the DA convened a grand jury, and Scott Davis was indicted. In November 2005, Scott was arrested again and charged with murder. So when he was arrested, what was your reaction? Outrage. Just outrage. He was able to post a million-dollar bond and was released. Dr. Davis, is there any, any shred of doubt in your mind of Scott's innocence?

But after nearly 10 years, Scott Davis is about to stand trial for the murder of David Coffin.

Ten long years after David Coffin's house was set on fire, Scott Davis is finally standing trial for murder.

Do you believe him? Absolutely. At his side, Christine Bradley, a paralegal on his team whom he has been dating. I didn't think this would ever go to trial.

David Coffin Sr. 's persistence has paid off.

Sometimes to do the right thing, you just have to take a chance. Prosecutor Sheila Ross knows there is no physical evidence.

And defense attorney Bruce Morris wastes no time pointing that out.

Most of that burned in the fire. Virtually all the evidence that was collected, more than 40 items, has been lost or discarded by the state. Only photographs remain. And you believe that any one of these items, had you had access to them, could have exonerated Scott?

But Ross contends she can prove that Scott Davis had a motive to kill.

Ross called Scott's former wife to the stand. Do you recognize the person in state 60-bit 4? That's Dave Kaufman, Gina. Megan Lee, the woman Scott once so doggedly pursued, has voluntarily flown in from Australia. I didn't feel like I could breathe when I first got up there. Is that the person that you were dating? It was, yes.

Over the course of three grueling days, Megan testifies about her failed marriage. The minute we got married, he wanted nothing to do with me. I felt very alone in my marriage.

She listens to Scott's messages pleading for her to come home. And tells jurors about Scott's fixation with the new man in her life. He kept on saying, I know David's there.

Perhaps most important to the state's case, Megan contends that when she told Scott about the fire at David's house, Scott said something very incriminating.

David Coffin had been shot in the head. That comment Scott allegedly made is key to the case because at the time, police didn't even know how David had died. So the question is, did Scott slip up and say something only the killer could have known? Are you 100% certain that it was Scott who told you? 100% certain. Remember, Scott said it was Megan who told him about the shooting.

If Megan knew first, how do you think Megan knew that information?

Megan admits that initially she told police she didn't know how David died. And all the horror, she says, she forgot. But she now remembers she told friends about the shooting after talking with Scott. You did not tell Scott that David Coffin had been shot in the head? No. Do you think Megan is lying?

Ross says the real liar is Scott Davis. He did himself in. He did himself in, she says, by spinning an elaborate tale about being a victim.

Police testify they found nothing to corroborate Scott's story. No evidence that someone took a shot at him.

No signs that Scott had shot an assailant, despite his claims that he shot at someone five times in his small backyard.

Ross says Scott kept digging himself a deeper hole.

She says Scott even tried to enlist a friend to provide a false alibi.

Instead, that friend turned on Scott and called the authorities. It is the cover-up that gets them in the end. But Christine Bradley insists there was nothing to cover up. I was sitting next to an innocent man. Was that difficult for you during the trial, dating someone who's accused of murder? Stressful, certainly.

When the defense lays out its case, Dr. Davis takes the stand. He tells jurors about the toll the accusations first took on his son 10 years ago.

Davis also provides his son an alibi for Saturday evening, around the same time the state believes David's house was ransacked.

That takes prosecutor Kelly Hill by surprise.

Correct. Do you think Dr. Davis was lying? I think he was, yeah. But the state cannot dismiss the fact that David's stolen Porsche was found burning around the time Scott had a meeting at work.

After nearly six weeks in court. He killed his competition. And more than 60 witnesses.

The trial ends without Scott taking the stand.

Did he ever make eye contact with you?

With the case in the jury's hands, there is a lot at stake for Scott Davis. In your mind, it's absolutely not possible that he had anything to do with this? Absolutely not possible. There's a lot at stake for Christine Bradley, too. Are you in love with Scott? Yes, very much so.

After testifying at Scott Davis' murder trial, Megan Lee has flown home to Australia. But she is still thinking about David Coffin.

David's father is glad he finally got to meet the woman his son was once so taken with.

As the jury deliberates, Scott's girlfriend, defense team paralegal Christine Bradley, waits anxiously. How is Scott feeling going into deliberations? Helpless. Nervous? Of course. Hours turn into days. Then court recesses for the weekend with no verdict. Scott and Christine relieve some tension by watching his old high school play football.

The following Monday, after nearly four days of deliberations... Okay, I understand we have a verdict. Scott and Christine will soon find out. They'll be able to leave the courtroom together.

Prosecutor Sheila Ross warns the Coffin family that there are no guarantees.

It is a bittersweet victory for David's father. When you heard the words guilty.

Was that the first time in 10 years?

But for Scott's parents, it is a devastating blow.

Christine can't believe it either.

While Christine faces an uncertain future, Megan is finally able to come to terms with her past.

At the sentencing, David's brother Bob speaks for the Coffin family.

So then was it worth all of the agony and the conversations and the pushing and the prodding?

The sentence is mandatory.

But just before he's led away, Scott Davis addresses the court for the first time.

After his conviction, Scott asked his girlfriend to read a letter he had written to 48 Hours.

How long do you think you'll stay together under these conditions?

But she may be waiting a long time. David's father is determined to keep Scott right where he is. Should he be in prison for life?

It was on that fateful weekend that his son told him about the new woman in his life. Megan Lee. He said to his father about you, this might be the real deal. How do you feel about that?

It was late at night on December 10th, 1996, when Megan Lee watched firemen struggle to gain control of the inferno at the home of her boyfriend, David Coffin.

Like Megan, Craig Foster was also in disbelief.

Their grief and fear only deepened when fire officials revealed that David had died before the fire even started. All I remember is laying down on the pavement, hysterical. Adding to the horror, it was the second time that same night someone close to Megan was the victim of violence. The first incident involved her estranged husband, Scott Davis.

Scott told her he had been ambushed that evening right in front of his house.

Now, hours later, Megan's soon-to-be ex-husband had even more bad news.

In that second attack, Scott Davis said the assailant used his gun. Patrolman Michael O'Connor took the report.

Scott also said that before all the shooting, the man set fire to the back of his house by the patio. Scott managed to put it out, but the timing was terrifying. It was just hours after David's house was set aflame.

Homicide detective Rick Chambers naturally suspected there had to be a link between the two victims.

Although she was connected to both victims, Megan could not imagine who would commit the crimes, who would attack her estranged husband, and why would that same person cut down her new boyfriend, David Coffin, in the prime of his life?

Bob Coffin has fond memories of his older brother.

David was a 41-year-old entrepreneur looking for business ventures in Atlanta when a friend introduced him to Megan.

Craig began to wonder if David's bachelor days were numbered.

But there was one rather sticky issue. Megan's divorce from Scott Davis was not yet final.

David Coffin spent Thanksgiving week with his father and told him about his new girlfriend.

Did you think you would be meeting her soon?

But David Coffin Sr., patriarch of a wealthy and established New England clan, was a cautious man. He advised his son to take his time.

Did he tell you she was married still?

Were you concerned?

In fact, Scott Davis was not quite ready for divorce and was having a hard time letting Megan go.

And what was the line?

And were you sleeping with David? And so I crossed that line. After Thanksgiving, David returned to Atlanta. and spent the next weekend at Megan's apartment.

That Sunday morning, David came home and found someone had broken in.

Most of his prized possessions were there, but a few were missing, including watches, guns, and his beloved Porsche.

Two days later, David's house was torched and he was dead. In the wee hours, Megan went to the police station to give a statement. She wasn't alone, though. Scott Davis was there, too.

But the more Scott Davis spoke, the more suspicious Detective Chambers grew about what he was saying, especially one critical detail.

Detective Rick Chambers was convinced that the man who murdered David Coffin had given himself away. Even before investigators knew how David died, Scott Davis was telling them it was a gunshot. He said that's what Megan, his estranged wife, told him.

So this was not adding up to you? No. Scott was the prime suspect, but he was hardly a typical murder suspect.

Scott's father, Dr. Dave Davis, is a prominent Atlanta psychiatrist.

A forensic psychiatrist. None of this surprises Dr. Dave Davis. Who made media appearances profiling criminals.

He now found himself defending his own son.

Scott was a 24-year-old graduate student when he met 19-year-old Megan Lee.

They dated for five years, but it was a rocky relationship.

After every breakup, Scott would beg for another chance, often in writing.

A European magazine featured their wedding with a photo spread, calling the event the perfect American wedding, Hollywood style.

You think he was happy when they got married?

Professionally, Scott Davis' star was rising as a technology consultant, but his personal life was soon in trouble.

The old bud was sweet and caring. I remember when my grandfather passed away, I remember that day, and he just held me, told me he loved me. I would go to babysit, and he would take my car and fill it up with gas for me before I'd come back. He always told me I was like his fourth child. And then towards the end, I mean, he turned into a completely different person that I didn't even recognize.

And I was honestly kind of scared to be around. It wasn't like necessarily I thought he would hurt me. I just got a really bad feeling whenever it was just us.

I really think she is so sick that she thought she could do this and then just walk into the sunset with her three kids. I think that's how she thought this was going to play out.

And what was she thinking? Did she not understand the impact this was going to have on her children's lives? I mean, she extinguished four lives that day. She murders her ex-husband and basically destroys the childhood of her three children. I just, I don't understand what she was thinking.

It was about 6.35 in the morning.

As I was getting dressed, my husband and I heard three loud bangs.

He put both hands on my shoulders and he said, Megan, Fred Javelin is lying in his driveway. He's dead.

Fred Jablin was a totally involved father. A super, super single parent.

Yeah. She had to get iron infusions. She was in, like, the cancer ward getting, like, bags of iron. Yeah, it was really crazy. Her levels were at, like, one and two, her hemoglobin levels. It was really bad. She actually went a season before I did, so I deferred my first season because I was playing in a youth World Cup. So she played a season before, and then I came.

She was really struggling with her anemia. I was playing, and then my sophomore year and junior year, I was out with knee injuries everywhere. her junior and senior year, our sophomore and junior year, she was out. So we really only played together basically our senior season, which was great. She played forward and I was a winger and we had a lot of fun together.

But it was hard because we were kind of parallel pathing these really difficult things and we were trying to figure ourselves out and had no language to do that. We're twins and the world's comparison when it comes to twins is difficult. No matter what, you're always going to be compared to each other because it's like, how are the twins? How are the babies? It's such a story for people. Totally.

Yeah. And so it was, I think, hard for both of us in ways to really understand and navigate that. And now, like 20 years later, we're starting to talk about it. So it's good.

Well, it compounded it because I outed us both to my mom. Let me tell you how I compounded that.

Yeah. I have a tendency to be spontaneous in the best of ways, but it's also really impulsive. So I'm working on integrating that.

It's your eyes. Your eyes.

I think it was your mouth too this time. Yeah. Yeah. It came right out of my mouth. I just honestly thought my mom would be like, well, obviously, we know. When I figured it out for myself, I was like, oh, my God, this is kind of embarrassing, Megan. This is really obvious. So I didn't really have the struggle with it. And so when I told my mom, I think it was just hard for her in the beginning.

This is not the dream that she saw. Not that it was bad. It was just she was like unprepared for it. Yeah. And I was like, well, Rachel's gay too. Obviously, this is fine. And we're both doing it. Oh, my God. So that was tougher. And I think she struggled with it a little bit more. And she was kind of struggling with her religious views.

And she was in this sort of evangelical, fake, progressive church that was honestly just kind of hateful and really conversion therapy vibe. So I think she was really struggling and struggling to find herself. And then I outed her to my mom. So I'm really sorry, Rachel. I'm still sorry to this day for

that well my intuition would be that you would come out to Rachel first and then also I could see where you'd come out to her last because of this shared identity thing yeah it was almost like we were kind of figuring ourselves out at the same time it's like when you're so close you can't see it and so we were both doing that same time and it was confusing and we both went to college for the first time it was like we were in Portland it's so progressive compared to Reading yeah yeah

Everything was just new coming from such a small place.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah, totally. We talk about this a lot. I think especially since we've both retired. I think when we were both playing, it was just naturally separated. Now we have to work really hard to have separate realms. And it's been hard and we're figuring that out. It's really only a year into both of us being retired.

I know. Honestly, we just interviewed Alex Morgan recently. She also retired. And she brought up this one element about showering. So to really make your point about scheduling, when you're an athlete, your shower is built in. You're showering after the game. You're showering after practice. You really don't have to think about showering.

So even down to the shower. Yeah, I bet. It's disruptive. And this change is disruptive.

Yeah. It's like you kind of have to be a little psycho to be a professional athlete. You have to have that routine. The routine is great because it's so structured, but it's also really unhealthy in a lot of ways because you're forcing yourself to do the exact same thing every day. They disguise it with words like discipline. Right. It's really like crazy. It's controlled. Oh, very.

You're rewarded for things that aren't necessarily going to help you in your personal life. Yeah. Right. I feel like when you retire, you have to come face to face with that in a big way. Or at least I did. Yeah.

It's very safe on a team. I always say teams are so interesting because you will simultaneously know who your teammates are dating. For us, I'm like, I know when my teammates have their period. Who needs a tampon? And then at the same time, I don't even know if all my teammates had siblings. I don't know if I know their hometowns all the time. So yeah, you're like simultaneously so intimate.

And then also not. But it is really safe because that intimacy is automatic. Once someone comes on your team, that's it. You are in lockstep. You got each other's back. If they got traded the next day, you'd be like, see ya. And you wouldn't think twice.

And it connects you in these really wonderful ways. But I think to your point, when you don't have that, it's been such a safe place. In some ways, it shows up as family. By the way, even with all this intimacy, the differences, you do have very real relationships with your teammates too. Yeah. The ones you click with do become family.

Whether it's the end of a season or retirement, all of a sudden you go your separate ways. And then you just might not see them for months and months and months.

Yeah. That sounds awful and sad. It's not. Really? Yeah, if anything, if it's someone you're cool with, you can't wait to go out to dinner with them. And then when you're on the court or the field, whatever, you just do it. You compartmentalize very well with that.

Yeah.

tough not great not gonna yeah so great it just doesn't work in life that way to compartmentalize your emotions and the things that you want you have to ask different questions even to your point about attention it's not necessarily the missed attention it's the very clear value structure for for yourself of like, where do I find my worth?

Yeah. Oh, God, that is true. It's like drilled in our existence.

In sports, it's like, if you're doing X, Y, and Z. It's a meritocracy. Yeah, in sports, it is a meritocracy. Like, you know, I have to do this, this, this, this, and this in order to do this. And then if I do that, then I'm going to be valued and I feel good about myself and everybody else feels good. And then when you stop playing, it's like, well, where do you find your value?

My sister asked me that the other day. How do you even evaluate yourself? Yeah, she was like, where do you find your value? I don't know. I literally was like, I don't think I know yet because what is life? Assists and goals. Yeah. I'm like, I don't really know. I'm starting to figure out what kind of things I like or even just our relationship to working out and our bodies.

Those questions have always just had answers. Yeah. And now it's like we're having to answer all these questions. And for us, we played for a long time. So it's also coming at this time in life. You're 43, about to be 44. I'm 39. It's already the sort of second coming of the existential crisis anyways. And so it's all coming at that time. And now you're like, well, what even is life?

I just got it. Yeah, that's cool. I mean, I overpaid for it, but it's fine.

We did the apartment. The kids were holding off on it for now. But the other part that I would just add to that is For me, especially, you go from never having your needs in the forefront. I got very comfortable, like, my needs don't matter. The team's needs matter. As long as I'm servicing that, this machine works, and then my value gets shown, right? And then I get rewarded.

And then you go into your real life and you're like, I have to tell you what my needs are? Yeah. How do you do that?

What are they? Yeah, so at 43, well, I retired at 41. I was like, how do I tell even Megan what my needs are? I don't know how to do this. Are you guys in couples therapy? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. With Orna? Ugh. No. I love the show, though. We do love the show. We love it. We just love the show.

I'm like, is it wrapped up and braided? The show just comes in with something new.

Ugh. Oh, we love a couple's therapy.

Oh, my God.

We've got to talk to Netflix about that.

No, everybody is. Everyone is.

Yeah. You're dependent on your body in a way that you have no control over. And we always talk about control the controllables. There's so many cliches in sports, but some of them are true. And you do, you try to control as much as you can. So maybe you eat right, you sleep, you work out a certain way, you make sure you're strong. And yet you still have no control over it.

And yet you're totally dependent on it. Because if you tear your ACL, you hurt your finger, whatever it is, you can't play. And there's your livelihood. But it really didn't stress me out till later in my career.

I mean, in my experience, tearing my ACL my freshman year is the best thing that could have happened to me.

Yeah, it woke me up in a way. I think I was very talented, obviously. You know, you don't go to UConn if you're not talented. But I needed something that was going to wake me up to really put me on a track where, like, I need to work harder. It was just a reset that I needed. Physically, I was young enough and, you know, you're a little ignorant. You're like, okay, I'll fix this. It'll be fine.

I'll move on. You don't understand the magnitude of it. So you're lucky. I was 18 years old. Like, I don't fucking know. When I look back, by far the best thing that could have happened, like I said, it just put me on this other track of focus that I really needed. And now I'm not taking it for granted. I'm actually focused on this, what people call a craft now.

I wouldn't have called it then, but you're focused on your craft. You're trying to get better. I'm doing the shooting workouts at 6 a.m. I'm not complaining about it. It just put me in a whole other place.

For me, it was more mental. Basically, I went from a relaxed version of myself to an incredibly focused version of myself.

I feel the same. Megan. What did you say? Megan.

No, you're dead right. You're dead right. You're dead right. I feel the same and I'm really thankful that happened. So it happened after my freshman year, beginning of my sophomore year, five or ten games in. I had a great freshman year. I knew I was good, but I think that year in college, against the best competition, we won my freshman year. We won national championship.

You couldn't tell me shit. I was like, I'm the boss. This is going to happen every year. I'm like, I'm the shit. I'm so arrogant. My head's big. I'm just like strutting into my sophomore year and then got injured. Even that injury, similar to what you're saying. Physically, I'm like, oh, I got this. I'm going to get back quicker than anyone. Kind of like still in that same mindset.

And then I did it again a year later. And I was like, okay, I get it. I'm not in charge.

I think it took me out of myself and gave me this sense. And I have more language for it now than I would have back then. And this is how I've approached all my injuries since then. It's like, this is part of it. You don't get to control everything. You're not in charge of everything. You're not God. You do what you can. You control what you can control.

You can work really hard and set yourself up. But ultimately, sports, the fittest you are, the closer you are to an injury. The better you are and the more fit you are, I feel like you're always on that razor's edge.

You're playing as hard as you can. You're working as hard as you can. You're pushing the limits. Yeah, you're pushing the limits. You're always kind of right there. That's a risk that you take. You know, I tore my ACL again when I was 30. I obviously tore my Achilles at the end of my career, literally the last six.

We love The Row too, though. Aww. Dream sponsor. I don't think the twins sponsor anyone or give discounts or give a fuck about anyone, honestly.

step i took i tore my achilles did you feel it go yeah yeah it was like the classic who kicked me i was like you gotta be fucking kidding me i was leaving i was like i'm leaving i was already leaving when i was young i feel like it gave me this perspective that was just like this is part of it this is life could we call it a surrender yeah definitely like a surrender to reality yeah

But there's also like an opportunity. So I've had probably eight lower extremity surgeries, six on my knee, one on each of my hips. And each one you're a little different after. You can never go back. So that's the surrender part. It's really hard to let go of the previous version of yourself as an athlete and try to now create a new.

But once you do surrender and once you get comfortable, I think with whatever this new adaptation is going to be, you're like, oh, it might be better. And then you get a little psycho about that. And then you get a little addicted to that.

Oh, that's a tough one. I feel like I could rank yours. No, I don't know. The most special, special one because it was my first was my gold medal in 2012. That was my first world championship. We had been in the World Cup final the year before we lost. And then obviously 2019 for a lot of different reasons was I feel like the crown jewel in my career. But that one, because it was my first.

It was special. I'm, you know, an American kid obsessed with the Olympics since I was little. Oh, and back to the injury part. A lot of people don't talk about the Olympics is so stressful because if you get injured, that's it. You don't get to participate. It's not a season where you're like, oh, I'm out for a couple of weeks or a couple of months and I'll get back.

I've had teammates that have torn their ACLs or done something right before the Olympics. And then you just don't get the chance. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like Olympics. Hope you're great in four years. Yeah. Again. Again. And it might have passed you up.

Definitely. And that definition, I think, has changed over time as I became more educated about the history of America and what I was standing up for and just who I am in America as a woman, as a gay woman, what that means. But I always took an incredible amount of pride to be able to represent America

It's not always the version of America that everybody else wants to talk about or some people don't want to talk about. Certainly after kneeling with Colin Kaepernick, that was a different sense. But I always took a lot of pride in being like, oh, no, I'm American, too. This is also America. I mean, you guys always had that.

I feel like women's basketball just intersects with every sort of ism possible. But I always took a lot of pride in being like, well, I'm American, too. Yeah.

I'm like, going back and forth in my head on what I want to pick here. I think for me, it is the Olympics. That's probably the tippy top. And that's because there was no WNBA for me growing up. Right. So yes, I wanted to get a college scholarship and that was kind of the immediate goal. But then it was the Olympics. That to me was, you've made it. You're an Olympian.

10%?

You heard about people going overseas, which I obviously did. But, you know, I'm not 15 dreaming about going overseas to play basketball. I'm 15 dreaming about being an Olympian. So to achieve that, for that reason, it's kind of hard to beat. But I am jockeying between what makes something more rewarding. Is it the stakes? Is it what you're representing? Is it the expectations?

I've been on teams where we weren't picked to win and then we did. And there's something special and different about that. But I've also been on teams that were expected. And we did. And there's something special about that. But I think to answer, it's the Olympics.

Oh, it's hard.

Sometimes it's just a relief to win. Yes. Like I think in the situations at the Olympics, there's a little bit of a relief. The expectation is perfection. And so once you get there, you're like, well, thank God we didn't fucking lose because that would be terrible.

Pure joy.

I have a twin, yeah. Yeah.

It's scary. It's just like an abatement of fear, really. You're also trying to recreate something from the year before, and that's a trap. Yeah, totally. You're like, but last year, guys, we did it like this. And this happened. Or last year, we did it like that. And it's a total trap that everybody, when they're trying to repeat, falls into. To the relief point.

It's like at the end of the day, I'm still an American. So I'm like, oh, no, I am the best in the world. There is something about proving that to yourself. And when you are on those teams that have those expectations and you get to look around and just be like, oh, no, we are who we thought we were. That is special, too.

But there's something just unexpected and a surprise about winning when you weren't expected. That's just a different kind of special, I think. Yeah.

I'm like dating two people. Yeah. Not really, but. Rachel. Rachel, yeah.

What's going on? I'm also going to stay up for 30 minutes, obviously, to see what's going on here.

That was a crazy time period in America. I never did an Ambien train. They would, like, give it to us on planes.

Yeah.

A big part of what happens and what gets overlaid is that if it doesn't look and feel exactly like men's sports, which of course it isn't because it's women's sports, then it's lesser. Everything is just automatically like, it's not going to be entertaining. It's not going to be fun. It's not going to make money. Nobody likes it. Nobody wants to watch. And it's like, that's actually just not true.

Yeah.

Women's sports, there's a ton of similarities because it's sports. But it is a different business. It's a different fan base, different business model. Things aren't exactly the same. If you go the business route for the WNBA, a big mistake was we took the NBA CBA 2003, I think is when we first became independent. The NBA actually owned the entire WNBA up until 2003.

And then it went to individual team ownership, which is more the model we're all familiar with now. That's how NBA is now.

So WNBA goes individual. So we now have to have a collective bargaining agreement. And we basically just took the MBAs and like copy pasted it.

And it's like, oh, that doesn't fit. We didn't really get to change that until our last one, which was 2019.

Certain ways in which free agency was going to work. Certain ways in which the salary cap was going to work. Certain rules. Well, one big one is that we didn't have maternity leave. So that's different.

That's the most obvious and most glaring. And then there's other smaller ways in which our league didn't get to have fun free agency.

NBA, what do we all love about the offseason? The free agency, where are these people gonna go? We were limited.

Yeah, it just didn't work for our league. So there's like a business part to it. I think there is like a medical part, right? Nutrition, the way we lift, the way we work out. We've always been following male guidelines and we're obviously different. I feel like where you're going, correct me if I'm wrong, is are we being coached in a way?

I would expect it all for fraternity. Yeah, free 99 for sure. I'm coming in there and you need to tell everyone at every store in the world who I am. And I'm just like, as if it's a closet.

So I've played for men. I've played for women. There's always been this unspoken understanding or not understanding, maybe like a knowing that like the women coaches are more emotional. Right. And that's been a negative.

Even internally. Like, oh, I don't want to play for her. Like she's just so much more emotional. Oh. Meanwhile, they're not. Men are more emotional and throwing stuff and having tantrums and not being able to control their emotions or name their emotions. It's just anger. But to your point, it's like, I think now we're finally getting to a place where we're questioning that.

Like, well, is that bad? Right. Because women are, in my experience, are more collaborative. We do like to do things together. Emotionally intelligent. And we take that into consideration.

I think the egos are different in women's sports than they are in men's. They exist.

They exist. They exist. But I think it shows itself differently. Yeah. And we've always used the male model for judgment on those things.

And I think it's starting to shift and you're starting to see coaches. I'm not super familiar with what the Seahawks coach was saying, but I think in women's basketball, you're starting to find coaches that are looking to do it differently.

I had a coach where we had a player who was dyslexic and she totally changed how she drew up plays, how she described things. I think to your point, it's like meeting somebody where they are.

I have a lot more respect for coaches that can adapt versus the ones like, this is how I do it. I've had success this way. You fit me here.

I think historically there's been also the vibe with coaches that they're the boss and the players work for them. And it's like, no, we're all coworkers. Your job is to lead the team and make decisions. And there's certain decisions that are your job that aren't my job as a player. But also I don't work for you. We're all working in an organization together.

We can all respect each other and give each other the space to have different ideas or to disagree or whatever it is. I think historically with men and women's sports, there's also the added layer of sexism. And then if there's sexual abuse that happens or sexual harassment or just like the vibes of it, there's all of that happening as well.

But I think even with men, just the sort of abuse that happens of just like, I'm going to tell you what to do no matter what. And it's a privilege for you to be here. And it's like, no, they're here because they're just as talented, probably more talented than you are, and we're all working together to do this.

No, I'm getting everything for free. I know.

It's just like, well, that's hysterical.

Or hug each other or show physical affection to each other. Yeah, grab each other's asses. Yeah, they do that weird pat thing.

Don't get me started on homoeroticism in male sports.

It's there.

It's like 28-ish years. It's still so new. Since 97, yeah.

Money skews it.

Yeah. I think the men do take a lot of pride when they play on the Olympic team. But their decision to do it, it's totally different. Yeah.

They don't even stay in the camp, I don't think. Yeah, we don't. So USA Basketball, men's and women's, it's one thing. So we do everything together. Oh, you do? Yeah.

I do.

Like before? Yeah, yeah. So I'm like 23 years old. I'd never met Allen Iverson. So I was like, well, he's kind of cool. Some of my favorite memories were just on the bus going to probably opening ceremony or something. And the whole time he was just like, name a sport. Give me a month. I'll be an Olympian. He was like, name it.

To a certain extent, but sometimes I'm like, well, how do you get it? You know, I guess that's the point. It's the work. I'm on the outside. Sometimes when it's too much. I mean, like the restaurant situation we're talking about with reservations in New York sometimes.

He was like, give me a month. Because that's how insane of an athlete he is, to be honest. And so gorgeous.

Yeah, I know. Why does he spend time with all of them? I could go down the list. We have good times. I think what I like most about the Olympic men's basketball team is these guys, they're all the best on their teams. They all have huge egos. They're all just like Mr. Man out there. And then they get there and the hierarchy shows itself.

Psychologically, it's really interesting because they're all good enough to play. And then you get in the game and it's like, oh, no, this is Steph LeBron and KD. Or you get in the game and it's Asia Stewie and really those two were the best. 2004 Athens Olympics is the one I'm referencing with Allen Iverson. LeBron, D. Wade, Melo are on that team. Wow. They didn't play a lot. No. That's crazy.

I was on the team with Diana Taurasi. We were kind of the young bucks. We didn't play a lot. Oh. So the five of us were just like every night like, what the fuck?

Yeah. It's an interesting experience. I love the drama. I mean, I'm here for all drama.

Just a year. I'm from there originally.

Yeah. So interestingly, the New York Liberty, who are in the WNBA finals now, they moved to Brooklyn a couple of years ago. So they had to change their mascot up and they have Ellie the elephant. I think it's like short for Ellis Island or something like that. This mascot has tapped into something, I think, in terms of spectators, fans, the connectedness.

It's like arguably Ellie is like bigger than the players.

She was just on stage with Justin Timberlake when he performed at Barclays. Was on stage when Missy and Ciara came through, performed with Ciara. So the show, when you go to the game, is very much about the game and very much about Ellie. People go for Ellie. And I think that speaks to women's basketball fans. If you see her perform, you'll understand what I'm saying.

Long Island, yep. So it's like a coming home, which is really nice. Megan always wanted to live there, so I was like, great.

You have to see it. Check it out. She's working and dancing. She'll do like a Beyonce set. She's like, this is my show.

Yeah. I think too, men's sports has not always been an actually safe place for a lot of people to go. If you think about an NFL game.

Yeah. Yeah. or the Cowboys or anybody else, you know, take 2016, 17, 18, and you are a queer person trying to go to the game. You're, you know, a black family trying to go to the game. Maybe it's just not always the safest place for you. And it's very much marketed like this is who we are. It's jets flying over. It's explicit conservative patriotism.

And for women's sporting events, I think this has always been true. Basically, it's like, don't be racist, misogynistic, sexist, or homophobic. That's the rules, period. And then have fun. Bring your friends. Bring your family. Be queer. Be black. Be whatever you want to be. And just come and enjoy the sport that's being played.

Have you been there? Oh, yeah, yeah. I've been there for sure.

It's hyper-masculine. There's a lot of alcohol. Drunk. It's drunk. There's people fighting. Yeah.

I mean, traditionally, I think women's sports has just had its own fan base for a very long time. And I think as women's sports has gotten more popular over the last five, six, seven years, people are coming to the games because they want to support something bigger. A woman who's suffering equal pay issues in her own job is like, you know what? I'm going to the soccer game. Yeah.

It has this culture. They're the ones doing identity politics. I'm going to do my fan rundown. The way I see it is this, in sports, There's like three buckets of fans. There's the diehards. They love the sport. They're in no matter what. They're like doing their own stats.

Then there's the people that don't give a shit. And that's okay too. There's people that don't like certain sports and they just don't care. You'll never get them. And then there's the bigger bucket, which is the casual fan. And I think for women's sports, we've had a really hard time tapping into the casual fan at times. And that's what you're seeing in this rise.

It's the more casual fan where it doesn't have to just be about the game. For some, it is. For some, it's not. I remember when the Sounders, which is the MLS team in Seattle, when they started to get really big and they averaged, I think, like a league best. Yeah, they're 40,000 a game. It's like 40,000 a game. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And so I went to a game and the first thing I noticed was, okay, everybody's got the scarf on. People love a scarf in soccer. We'll get to that in a second. In group. In group. That's right. They were doing a tailgate thing. Then we got to the game and a large percentage of the people around me clearly did not know the rules. And then I was like, what is happening here?

And I was like, oh, you're a part of something. There's a community. So for some, it's that. And so I just think that casual bucket, who cares where they're going? Something touched them and they're going. And women's sports is finally tapping into that. Because for a while, we were just the punchline. So the casual fan was like, why do I go to a WNBA game? They're making fun of it on SNL.

Yeah.

Right, right. That's all changing. I might as well go to a baseball game. Yeah, it's cool to be at an NBA game. It's cool to be at an NFL game. They don't care about the sport either.

Awesome.

No. Honestly, whenever I tell people from California, they're like, cool. And I'm like, not that one. And then they vote North and they're like, cool. And I'm like, not that either. Yeah. They're like, what else is there? Do you surf, redwoods, or snowboarders? I know, Redding is really interesting because it's situated right on I-5, so it's this sort of throughway all up and down the West Coast.

Yeah.

I think there's some of that. It's a real sort of counterculture vibe. Yeah. Sounders have that definitely here in LAFC. The chanting. It's like all the football fans have been captured. The baseball fans have been captured. It's classic America sports. And this is like, ooh, it's a little subversive. Right. I think we like that.

Yeah, it's fun. It's a cool vibe with all the supporters groups and they're yelling and they got the flags and the flares and the tipos and it's crazy. And the scarves. And the scarves, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

The supporter group people.

Yeah.

It started during the pandemic just on Instagram Live because we were like, we know what the people need. Us drinking. Us drinking and fucking around. That's sort of the ultimate origin story. But then we did a couple of live shows and those were just fun. Like at the Women's Final Four. Tell me more.

Like a bar restaurant. Like a little bar restaurant type vibe. The fans come and then we get up there and we kind of do like a version of a live podcast basically.

Usually with guests.

We're pretty good. We'll go long. Okay. That's kind of our, I feel like we're yacking. We don't know how to not go long. Yeah, same. Yeah. But we're at certain events that beg for certain topics to be talked about. Yes. There's not like as much leeway. We're at the final four. We're talking about basketball. We're talking about that.

Yeah, so we met at the Nike house, I think.

Because everyone's in such good shape.

I always say it's the one place you go, to be honest, to feel like shit about yourself because... Everybody look. Yeah. Even better. So good. Yeah. Like you think you look good and then you see like a track and field athlete.

And you're like, holy fuck. And you're like, oh yeah. Have I ever done a sit up? Like it's happening. Cause like we're obviously in shape, but we're not worried about one 10th of a second. Right. And that's a different kind of shape.

All the soccer players look the same. When we first started dating, I was actually, like I said earlier, I'm only 5'9". In my world, I'm tiny. Yeah. I'm in the back, in the middle seat, always in the car. Like always. I just took that on as my identity. Then we got together. And her teammates were like, she's huge. Yeah. She's a freak. Shotgun for Sue. Where'd you get this giraffe? Literally. Wow.

Totally, in the meth pipeline. Drug use is, especially historically, totally rampant, especially meth. But then it's right next to the Golden Triangle, which is the best weed in the world.

And it was interesting because I was like, oh, as a soccer player, you have to be of a certain height and build because you have to run. You're not going to be 6'8". You have to be able to run. If you can't run fast, you can't play. Right. And run forever. Yeah.

The Nike house. People do houses.

USA has a house. Nike has a house. I'm sure Adidas has a house.

It's more like a place to go because the Olympics are kind of wild. And for the athletes, you're in the village. You don't really get to see your family. They can't come in the village. So a lot of brands, a lot of different people have these houses, which is really just a place you can go and bring your family. Oh. See your people.

They'll have like events or they'll have food or they'll have a little shopping section or sometimes they'll throw a party. And it's kind of these multi-use spaces that's like Nike's setting up here for the Olympics kind of deal.

I was with my teammates. Our team had already gone out. We like bombed out of the Olympics. I think you were there socially. Yeah.

Yeah, literally.

A lot of my teammates, we weren't even in Rio for our games. Soccer travels all over. So we hadn't even gone to Rio yet. Most of my teammates, it was pretty devastating loss. We did terrible. They were like, we're going home. This is awful. And I was like, well, I'm going to drown myself in Rio and I'm going to have myself a ball. There was like six or seven of us that went down there.

It was great. So you had not met before. We're in the same agency, not the same agent. And we both play in Seattle in our professional team. We knew of each other. We had met once. But what the Olympics really marked was like, this is dumb. We're both in Seattle. Why aren't we friends and hanging out? Why aren't our teams hanging out? This is stupid. And that's really how it started.

I was dating someone at the time. Okay.

I was engaged to someone at the time. I'm like dating. I was engaged to someone at the time. And yeah, we were going through a little bit of a rough patch and that wasn't going to work. And then obviously meeting Sue, it just became very clear, clear that. Clearly queer. Yeah. Yeah. Then it escalated.

After I broke up with. Real fun. I broke up with my fiance at the time and then we started talking. Yeah.

You know how lesbians are all.

What is it?

Was it coordinated about retiring at the same time, roughly?

That's crazy. Is that a record in the WNBA? Were you the longest playing? Maybe. Definitely up there. Yeah, you and Diana probably.

Yeah, it did.

What the fuck do we do now?

Yeah. It was my favorite Derek Jeter quote when he retired. He was like, oh, I went from being an old man to a young man. Because when you're 41 in sports, you're old as fuck. And they treat you that way and they talk about your age and they ask you what you're going to do. As soon as you hit 30, they're like, oh, what are you going to do next? Retirement conversation. Yeah. Wow.

And then the minute you retire, like, oh, I'm young again. This is great. I'm not the oldest one at dinners. This is amazing.

And then there is also traditional granola hippie vibes going on in and around Reading. I think a lot of people go there to like be left alone or have gone there to be left alone. But then it's also just a very normal conservative. And then there's like this evangelical church has gotten really big up there, Bethel, which I don't fuck with at all. And they have gotten into like

I'm like, just let him live. He's just driving his car. Just let him live.

Yeah. So what's interesting about that is you're in your late 30s, early 40s, but you're at an expert level in your career. But now you get to go into this, what we call like the real world. And we do have an expertise that's unique. We hit that level of our career, but we're young again. And I think that's really where we are. And that's what makes what we're doing exciting.

Like whether it's the podcast or the other business ventures that we're in, we have an expert level, but we're still pretty young. You have time.

Yeah.

With the podcast, what was so... And even our production company that we started and wanting to get into media and content. Storytelling is the most important thing, whether it's writers and their books or journalists storytelling what's happening in the world or storytelling and narrating around sports. And women's sports has had such a lack of...

of storytelling, understanding, conversation, a lack of nuance. And we've lived, you say it all the time in a very non-arrogant way, like we really are the experts. We've lived through this crazy period of basically the last 25 years where now we're at this period in sports where basically all the money's like, okay, fine, women's sports, we're going to do it. It seems like it's a good

thing and now there's all this money coming in and there's all this interest and there's all these eyeballs and stories need to be told we are really in a position it's like we know all the stories we know where all the bodies are if we don't know it personally we know the person who does know it personally yeah we've lived it all we've understood how we've gotten to this moment so i think with the podcast and with our production company we really feel like we're in this position to like

narrate all the history, but also this is how we should be talking about women's sports. This is how it's different from men's sports. Cause we also know men's sports. We're huge fans of men's sports for our whole lives. And we've had so much, whether it's the last dance or just watching it for so long, we have so much information about it.

This is so exciting for us and why we even want to do this. Cause as you guys know, it's a lot of work to like sit in front of a mic and prepare and tell these stories and do this narration all the time.

But it's a really exciting time, I think, for both of us. And what excites both of us about it is we really know what it is and how the story should be told to bring more people in because we're like, this is amazing here. Women's sports is incredible. Sports are incredible.

It's one of the most vulnerable things you can watch someone do live is to try their very hardest with their physical body in tandem with other people and like try to achieve this goal. And somebody's trying to stop you. And somebody's trying to stop you. Somebody's trying to do the same thing.

conversion therapy and mysticism. And it's to me, bad news bears. And it's just a wild place.

Sports stories are so human. Whether you're climbing the face of El Capitan, which none of us can do, you can like understand the story of what Alex is doing up there. Yes. Or watching Power of the Dream, like you guys documented how they basically saved America. You understand what's happening and you can feel yourself in that.

Yeah, it really matters.

The Diwali Barbie.

It came out. Oh, my God. So exciting. I know. It's so cool. Look at the ding, ding, ding here. You brought a Barbie. She is a Barbie. You are one. Yeah, I always joke my Barbie has better knees than I do. I'm like low-key jealous. They made her bionic. I'm like, damn. Oh, that's exciting. I need that technology. No, it really does matter. I feel like that's what's so cool about women's sports.

It's to see it be it. It's like, yeah, you're talking about gay women and black women and queer women and straight women and white women. It's like there's a million things going on in here and everybody can find their place in it.

I was like, am I an F1 super fan? Yes, she is. Because they gave us the protagonists.

It's all the story around it. It's all the history around it. It's all of the little things that pull you in. That's why I love the Olympics so much because they show you the pre-story, and especially how it used to be where it was like it's coming on at prime time. They show you the story, and then you watch that person go and run around the track.

I am locked in.

I want to see you win. All of those things matter. And then you're invested in it. And then, yeah, sports are sports. They're fun and it's an event to go to. Like a concert or a comedy show or the farmer's market or you go to sports. It's like this is something that we're doing for entertainment. I think there's something that you always say that's like, not every sport is for every person.

You said baseball was boring, but you can maybe go one time and enjoy it. Or you don't go at all and you don't love it. And you say, I'm literally stealing this for you. But it's like, but you don't shit on baseball every day. You don't like spend all of your time.

Right. You're not spending all of your time on the platform that you have to make sure everybody knows you hate baseball.

Her face is very expressive.

And that's what people do to women's sports. So it's like, you don't... have to even come to the most popular ones that you'll probably like. You don't even have to do that. But why do you have to shit on it? Why do you have to tear that down? Why is it threatening? That's the point. It's okay if you like one thing better than another.

I would argue that, and I can't really pull like an exact example, but I might argue that, I'm not going to argue this, someone might say men's tennis is more, what, athletic, exciting than women's tennis. And yet, Aren't there people that prefer women's tennis? So it is just the preference. And then back to what Megan said. Women's basketball is a great example. We don't dunk.

Yeah, no, you tell a lot with your facial expressions, for sure.

We have to deal with this all the time. You guys don't dunk. It's boring. Oh, that's the big complaint? Yes.

I love that. But it's like you constantly have to answer that, but it's like, okay, you don't like it. That's fine. But what she said, why do you feel the need to shit on it? Because that shitting on it has infested and gotten in the veins of like the cultural cachet of it all.

For basketball, I have one. Oh, great. It's very specific to basketball.

Okay, so different from some other sports, particularly team sports, a lot of men, boys, play basketball. They play it. They play it on the park. They play it in gym class. They play it on their teams in elementary school, middle school, so on. and so forth. And they think they're good.

Or like it could be goofy.

And what do men a lot of times do in my experience is they're constantly sizing the women's basketball players up. And so they're looking like, I could do that. I could beat you. And that is their way of like flexing that they could do it. And therefore it doesn't have value. So that happens a lot. And I think it's because basketball is just such a popular sport in our country.

I can't even tell you how much I encounter that.

No.

No one thinks they're a good swimmer. Soccer, Megan doesn't get this. Rare, if ever, does she have a guy come up to her and be like, I could take you. Yeah. Whereas this is like, well, if it's not an actual one-on-one game, it's a game of horse.

I mean, yeah. I don't think she minds people knowing that. Yeah, that's true.

All the time. I'm constantly, now a lot of times it's friendly. They're not being jerks. It's like a friendly banter. Maybe, you know, we're out at a bar. I don't know what it is, but it happens all the time. And I'm smaller. Sometimes it's someone who maybe did have a good high school career, maybe played D2, D3.

And I always say, this is always my, I'm like, if I had your body, I'm like, you'd be looking at the highest paid player in the NBA.

It's just that I don't, you know, because there's six, seven. Yeah. Anyways.

And it just became the thing to shit on.

My mom was a waitress for the whole time we lived there. She actually just retired a couple years ago, Jack's Grill, which is like a really cool sort of simple steakhouse bar. It was one of the nicer restaurants, but it's not like nice. It's Saltine's. on the table when you were a kid. Yeah, no white tablecloth or anything. And then my dad mostly worked in construction.

Yeah.

Not to say that all men are Elon Musk, but we have questions. Yeah.

I've been at dinners. We've been at dinners with close friends. And some of them are married couples, men, women. And there was this one topic that went around of who's the best shooter. And by the way, a lot of my friends are former athletes also. Basketball players, the women are. And their husbands didn't play in college, but they played. I've seen them play. They're decent.

And we went around the table. Who's the best shooter at the table? I didn't get picked first.

Or it was, well, okay, yeah, I guess we have to pick Sue first. And I just don't know.

Yeah. I'm not even going to go in the Steph Curry route. Yeah, Reggie Miller. Yeah, Jason Kidd. Not even the best of the best, but like they would ever say. well, I guess we have to put Jason first. Because Steph Curry, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, yeah, they'd be like, oh, of course, guys, yeah. LeBron even. So you could argue LeBron's not the greatest shooter of all time.

Anyone could make that argument. And yet they would still be like, oh, LeBron's first. And I was just looking around. I was like, guys,

What are we doing here? Let's go to this three-point line right now. For women in general, it's like, what's it going to take? Men's ball, women's ball, volleyball, beach ball, pick it. Let's go. I think there is something about, and I think this generally happens in equality conversations, but there is something about women getting more rights that feels threatening.

And it's like, no one's taking your rights away, men. No one's doing that. That's not inequality that we're having more rights, right?

Yeah.

Well, I do think there's something that's generally happening in America with the falsehood of the American dream of if you work hard and do X, Y, and Z, then you'll get X, Y, and Z. Whether that's in a job, which is not true anymore.

There used to be a path for it and then corporations got greedy and are blaming it on immigrants that now you can't have this pathway to have a job and have a life and success because other people are taking it. It's like really corporate profits have gone up.

crazy so there's that part but then there's also this part of oh you're a guy these are the things that you deserve you're entitled to a woman and it's like no nobody's entitled to anybody else women don't not need men obviously not every woman is a gay woman otherwise that would be a problem that would be a problem but like you're not entitled to this other person so what are you bringing to them yes what are they bringing to you the relationship is just becoming more equal

Men, I think, have historically been told, be hyper-masculine, do these things, don't show any emotion. And they are going through a crisis. Yeah. We're asking for something a little different. Yeah. And I also am kind of like, and that's not our emotional labor to hold. That's men's. You guys have to take that on yourself and figure that out.

We have to do that for ourselves while fighting against the threat that is inequality. I think men are going through a crisis now. I feel that and I see that and I am empathetic to that. And also, we figured it out like under the boot so you guys can do it.

Not even hippie anarchist. Honestly, I don't even know.

I really like you.

What's the name of your podcast? A Touch More.

Thank you. We're learning. We're figuring it out. It's a good 30. So many questions for you guys. We're still learning. Yeah. The interviewing is probably where, as two people interviewing one person, that's a dance we're getting. That's a hard thing.

Agreed.

They were in San Diego, and I was like, what happened?

No, that's a good point.

I think so, yeah. We got a couple of cool things coming out. We adapted a book, Clique Cute. The show is going to be called Playing the Field. Okay. Yeah, Sarah Tapscott, who did College Lives of Sex Girls, New Girl. Yeah, sorry, Sex Lives of College Girls.

And then when they got together, they moved to Carson City. I think my mom's mom was sick at the time. They went to take care of her. And then I don't know how they ended up in Reading. I still have a lot of questions of what happened there. And then they never left.

and the college lives of sexy girls honestly one and the same yeah i'm saying you guys she's our showrunner so we're really excited about that one and then we have like a reality show coming up oh good yeah we're excited okay so you're not going to be sitting around there'll be a shooting schedule schedules in your future we have lots of schedules you know google docs and i know calendars inserted in the calendar maybe literally maybe

wild out here in this normal world.

Thanks for having me. Thank you. And maybe let your daughters win in horse. I think I changed my mind. I've been stewing over here.

You need a tree. It's like five or seven. Yes. My oldest sister is actually my aunt. It's my mom's youngest sister who she raised. And my youngest brother is my nephew. It's my brother's child that my parents raised. Okay, okay. I say seven. It's really five. Who cares? I just leave it out there for people.

Yeah.

It's kind of like that. Like all the houses are the same. You can ride your bike everywhere. Like pretty chill, middle class.

Syosset. So it's in Nassau County, North Shore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Natalie Portman. Oh, shit. What's her last name though? Hershlog. Hershlog, yeah. So Natalie was a year younger than I was. Oh, she was? She went to your high school? Yeah.

She did. You did too? I also did, yeah. So we only went to high school one or two years. Whoa.

She came in. Right. I left like a year or two later.

Yeah. So she came into school. We're like, oh shit, that's the actress.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Honestly, the way she is now when you're around her, almost unassuming. Yeah. Just kind of chill. Same thing. Obviously, it was just in a blockbuster movie, if you will. And just totally chill.

Yeah. I can't even explain it. I don't want to downplay who she was, but at the same time, it was like, she wore sweats to school. Yeah. Just so chill. Just another kid. Just another kid.

Not at all. Not at all.

Five years.

It's a lot when you're younger.

Okay. Okay.

No, not really.

But only because we had very quickly different lanes. She's way smarter than I am. Academics was her thing. She also played sports, but sports was my thing.

And so we didn't have a lot of competition in sports. I probably was beating her like very early. Do you have an older brother? Yeah. Yeah. It's different for boys. Like we weren't wrestling. It wasn't like a physical.

It was the greatest day of my life. That's how I felt when I first scored on my dad. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, my dad's 6'3". I'm only 5'9". So who knows what I was then, 5 foot. And when I finally scored on my dad while we were just like shooting at the park, that was like a big day.

No, you want them to get it on their own. Because when you earn that, that's yours forever.

I'm not saying if it was basketball, it's not like you got to block their shot crazy all the time. Every time. You don't have to like, yeah, to come in and tumble them. But no, you don't have to like let them. Yeah, this actually happened. Very sad. With Rachel and I and our older brother, Michael. He kicked our ass in basketball. He's like 10 years older than us.

He's probably 15 years older than us. He's so much older than us.

You still don't know anything about him.

In that family? We don't know.

and we played him like 2v1 we were probably 14 years old he was barefoot in the street he tore his feet up so bad he had to put like maxi pads on his feet and he kicked our ass and he gloated about it and we were just like first of all whatever you're fucking grown man you're gonna beat us but we were pissed like he could very easily let us win we were just like no we had to try our hardest i mean we didn't beat him and i'm sure we took it out on some other kids at school probably took it

that on our basketball team.

How old are they?

Okay.

I don't know. I don't know. I'm like trying to think. When I play with my nieces, same. I don't shoot like deep threes off the dribble. I'm not like doing that.

Holy shit.

That's so cool. Yeah. Played on good teams.

I'll tell you why I shot well in college. So I was injured my freshman year. I basically missed the whole year. So I really only played three years in college. And the fall of my sophomore year, it's very common in preseason, you have these 6 a.m. workouts. So we had them three times a week. After every 6 a.m. workout, he would make me shoot threes.

It wasn't crazy, like 30, 45 minutes, but like three times a week for two months. Just you? Yeah, me and a coach. And then he would watch.

In shooting percentages, if it goes up 2%, that's ginormous. I bet if you looked at my freshman year to my sophomore year, I bet there was easily a 15% jump. Wow.

Don't need them on.

We already have Sue. We can't bring them on. But I'll tell you what, he didn't take it easy on me. I'm answering your question. Okay. He was a pain in my ass, to be honest.

I agree. You do agree? Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's both of our experiences. There's, of course, times where they're tired or they're being little shits or whatever. And you're like, no, these are things that are important. My parents were always like, you guys lead. But the one thing they were like, you're going to try hard. If we half-assed or something, they were like, oh, no, no, no.

We're not putting all this time and effort in for that. And there's certain life things that you've got to teach your kids. But I think in general, it kind of shows itself. In kindergarten, we were like busting kids' ass in kindergarten. We're the most athletic kids in kindergarten. Like from a young age, you're probably going to be showing some signs of athletic talent and aptitude.

Just like if you were, you know. Music, anything. Yeah, exactly.

Sacramento. Sacramento. In the Bay Area. Yeah.

They honestly had very frank conversations with us of like, if you two want to do this, great. We'll sacrifice our whole life for this. No problem. No, they were like, we'll do this, but we're not going to be dragging you through it. They made that very clear. And we were like, no, we want to do it. And they were like, OK, let's go.

I think when we were younger, it was in a play sense. We just played everything together all the time. I think we made it similar to your relationship with your older brother. It was like we made each other better because we could go without any insecurity as hard as we wanted at each other.

And we played one-on-one baseball, one-on-one football, one-on-one basketball, one-on-one... One-on-one baseball.

He was like, you're batting and running and hitting all at the same time. And we didn't really have that jealousy of each other. We more so were like, we're playing this together. We always played different positions. We went through different times where like, she was a lot better than me. Pretty much until midway through high school. I feel like I hit puberty kind of later.

She was always much better and more confident. Midway through high school, maybe like my junior year, I feel like I grew and grew into myself. But we were both great.

Portland was a little bit more difficult, honestly, for both of us. We both had a lot of injuries. Rachel was severely anemic her freshman year and she didn't know it and it was undiagnosed. So it was kind of like a shame on her thing of like, you're not working hard enough or you're not fit. But really, she was severely anemic. So all through her first year, it was really difficult.

Thank you for supporting us. Always. I appreciate the entertainment.

It's on the way. While I was listening to the cookie boy disagree, that's when I purchased it. While I'm walking the dogs, I bought it while you're disagreeing about who would or would not wear the shirt. I would encourage you to wear it.

All the comments, Monica, were I bought the cookie boy shirt because of that. Oh, my God. We're here for you.

Really good question. We are still friends with quite a few of the people who got us together. We always text them on Valentine's Day, like, thanks so much, guys.

But like you asked about sometimes your perfect match isn't a one-to-one match. He's a Scorpio. I'm a Sagittarius. So there is a lot of things in common, but plenty of difference. And I think that's what

really clicked in for us was that it was all about balance we pushed each other but also challenged and supported so even our careers complemented each other i'm a graphic designer so i work remote so i can go wherever it's like we're moving to wichita i'm like great they have computers and wi-fi there right no big deal okay i'm gonna ask a challenging question now so you've been with i don't know what number boyfriend he was but certainly from your senior year till now adulthood you've been with the same person is there any tension with that

No, and he was really my first real boyfriend because I didn't date anybody after that match. I was just so terrified of dating and seeing my friend's heart get broken. My mom was a single mom. And I was like, this is a lot. And I think I just needed to be ready to open up. I think once I started dating Sean, and he was so... kind, so patient, so sweet. I didn't really need to look anywhere else.

It all just kind of felt right. It just worked.

Thank you too. We love the show. Listen all the time. The genuine heartfelt conversations. It's great. Keep making them.

Wow.

The year is 2009. It was October 29th. I remember this because me and a few friends were going to the Jay-Z concert. You lucky fucks. Yeah. He came to London, Ontario.

I think artists come here because it's in between Detroit and Toronto. So it's like another venue stop.

It's like an OHL arena, which is a level below the NHL hockey arena. But we've had like Billy Joel, Sting, Cher.

We're really lucky. Hove came. And of course, we weren't going to pass that up. But a caveat in the story was the Yankees were playing the World Series. So it's game two of the World Series. And of course, they're going to ask him to perform. He was flying in late. There was four openers. So it was probably OK that he was late. But as a result, everyone at the venue was getting absolutely trash.

So he was flying in privately after New York to London, not a long flight, but we got there when doors opened at the venue. So we got pretty inebriated to say the least. I was 20 years old. It was fun.

He probably didn't go on stage until even like 1030 that night. It was rowdy. It was fun. It was a good show. So after that, we wanted to keep the party going. So we went to a local bar, walked to one. It wasn't too far away. We were having fun at the bar in a booth. I got up to either see a friend or go dance and I left all my stuff in the booth.

I was with friends, so I wasn't too worried about it. But when I went back, they were all gone.

They took my stuff. They're good friends. But as a result, I was like, I can't go meet them at another bar. I don't have money for a cab. I don't have my phone. They just left you? Yeah, I don't know. We were all kind of out of it.

I wasn't mad at them. Happy-go-lucky, having a great night. So I just figured the night's about to wind down anyways. I'll just walk back to their student house a few kilometers down the road. There's a big strip of bars in London. So I felt very safe and not worried. concerned at all. Like most people were out partying that night were students, young people.

Halfway through my walk, this guy starts walking with me. He was holding a longboard. Oh, he wasn't at the bars, but he was a bit younger. So I wasn't again, concerned. And he did say you shouldn't be walking alone. Yeah. And I, again, happy go lucky me talk to everyone. Wasn't very concerned about it. And I said, well, if you want, you can walk with me.

So we started making small talk and he just said, I just knocked someone out down the road.

I got tripped on my longboard and we got in a fight. I was not too surprised. He was wearing a tap out shirt. So I said, that seems on brand. He mentioned he was a trained fighter. He got a lot out in that first couple minutes.

A few more minutes down the road, three cruisers pull over and they grab him and they grab me.

And he starts yelling like, let her go, let her go. I don't know her. I was just walking with her.

Right. And we were on like the main street, too. You think he would have cut down a neighborhood street. So ultimately they take him away, but they wanted a statement from me. And I was all jazzed up to talk to the cops and thought it was hilarious. So I gave them one. And they also drove me home and flattered me by putting on the lights.

Time passes now after that happens. I kind of didn't really think much of it. Now we're in spring 2011. Two years later. Yes. I got a letter in the mail, me being subpoenaed to court. So we're going to call the guy I was walking with longboard Andrew. Basically, Andrew's attorney wanted to use me as a witness because he's being charged with assault.

So I show up at court and I was waiting and waiting. So I sat down beside a different person and I just, again, as I do, I was chatting with him. The guy was kind of annoyed. He was just saying like, I have to take off work to be here. We chatted for about 20 minutes and Andrew's attorney came to grab me and they read me my statement.

Yeah, they could not use it.

Ultimately, after they read it back to me, they decided I wasn't going to be a reliable witness and they let me go home. On my way out, though, I did see that guy was sitting beside and I told him, good luck for whatever reason you're here. And I was on my way.

Yeah, he was involved in one of the trials. But the thing is, where the courtroom is, there's 10 different courtrooms. We didn't get too into it. He was a bit more of a shy guy. But now we're in September 2011, just a bit later that year. I start working at a new bar downtown. And I started doing guest list and cover charge. So I would stand kind of outside the bar.

And it was quite a popular student bar, young person bar. It had quite a line on busy nights. And if any of my friends knew me or anyone recognized me, they'd try to cut the line as you do. I hear one night, hey, Julie, remember me? It's Curtis from court.

Yeah. I walked over and then I ultimately did remember him too. And he was with a bunch of friends. So obviously asking to cut the line and I let them in. Later, he had a bit of liquid courage in him and he asked if he could buy me a drink after my shift. Ah. I was intrigued and single, so I accepted.

The sim part of the story is that I was now having a drink with the guy who got knocked out by Andrew. No!

Oh my god. And the knockout happened in front of the bar I was working at. Oh my god. So another one of the witnesses ended up being a bouncer that worked at that bar too, which is kind of funny. Wow. This is wild. The reason it went to court was this Andrew guy, it wasn't his first assault, but he also hit Curtis so hard that he had brain trauma and was in the ICU for like a week.

When this guy was saying he was a trained fighter, it all kind of makes sense. So a few weeks after that, Kurt and I started dating. Now we're married. We have two kids.

One was born two weeks ago.

Obviously, he doesn't remember anything after being knocked out, but he probably did trip the guy. In London, Ontario, after the bars get out, it is like mayhem. There are so many people out on the sidewalk. So for anyone to even be skateboarding down a sidewalk is going to run into someone.

Ultimately, it's kind of funny because me and Kurt are very different. I'm super outgoing. He's a bit more reserved and he's always harping on me for talking to strangers. But I never would have met him if I didn't strike up conversation with him in court and I didn't walk with a stranger who had assaulted him.

How sweet.

Yeah, we love that. Thank you. I wrote in for a few different things. Did you guys ever have sleepwalking prompts?

I wrote in for that one too, but if it ever circles back. If we do a part two.

It doesn't have to have gone wrong.

I think people do it at sports stadiums all the time.

Thank you. It was lovely meeting you guys.

Do everything in your power to bring Ted Seegers to Ontario.

Looking forward to it. So nice meeting you. Take care.

We are. Did you do that for sound? Yes, that was the advice given. We both wanted to be here because we're both big fans.

Hiking. And we're actually with friends right now, so we did a little couples trip just to get away from it all.

It's actually right at the end of snowy season, so we haven't had to have the snowshoes or anything. So we only slipped a little yesterday. Oh, okay.

That's a different prompt.

I usually tell this story and Sean fact checks me or helps keep the plot going. So I will kick us off. Sean and I are from Cincinnati, Ohio. Go ahead.

We know.

Absolutely.

Heck yeah. Yeah.

We went to the same high school. Shout out Colerain High School. The year was 2008. I was a shy little baby sophomore. And Sean was a senior at the time. The junior class was having a fundraiser for Valentine's Day. And they had the whole school take a compatibility test.

I know. Do you guys remember Scantron? Yes. Like those little tickets. So that's what we all use to like fill out our compatibility test.

Very organized thing. And I was type A. So I was like, great. Just tell me who my boyfriends are. Let's just get this whole thing over with.

On Valentine's Day, you handed over five bucks and then you got your little report of your top 10 matches in the school. The cool part was, is you could see where you fell on your matches list because it wasn't always your number one match. You were their number one match because they could have had someone more compatible.

I have tried to look it up because I've had people like, what is the authenticity here? And I'm like, I didn't ask any questions.

I open up my little report and I see my top 10 matches and I'm like, oh my God, I matched with a senior. That's a man. What am I going to do? I went from like no boyfriend, never been kissed. Now I'm matching with a senior man. So I turn around to my friend in class and I'm like, do you know who this Sean guy is? And she's like, wait, you matched with him. That is the hottest guy in marching band.

Oh.

Still great. Our school was big, so I had never heard of him.

So the marching band gets wind of this, and we have interconnecting friend circles. So they all coordinated our little meet-cute in the band room at the end of the day. I was a nervous wreck the whole day, and they had to drag me down the stairs, push me on my heels. The band separates in the band room, and there he is, the hottest guy in marching band. Oh!

I was like so shy and intimidated by the whole thing. I was like, great. Hi, we did a hug. And he had that deep voice. So I was like terrified. And he's pretty shy too. It took us a minute to actually reconnect. I ended up texting him when I was a senior and he was a sophomore.

You let it go to see if it would return. Oh, well. It was almost like too much. It was very intense, very overwhelming. I wasn't ready to get married.

Yeah, this is too much. Before my senior year, I went to leadership camp and I got all this confidence. And I was like, I'm going to text the hottie from Marching Ant to see if he remembers me. And he was in college now, so I was ready for a college boyfriend. So I sent him a text and the rest is history. You started dating immediately? Pretty much immediately.

Yeah, I'm sorry that they didn't teach their kids how to grasp the concept of party etiquette. It wasn't their birthdays.

They want to ruin the damn surprise.

God, you sound like one of the damn whiny parents that called.

Good. She doesn't want those kind of friends anyway. And where did you guys get off? I hope you're proud of yourself for trying to drag a good mom down on live radio for trying to make her daughter happy. Okay.

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for all of the tips of how to be a good mother. How about I give you guys some advice? Get real jobs.

My mother gives me that same advice. You really are a good mom. Who the hell works on radio anymore? Nobody.

Okay. Hi. How are you?

Oh, no problem. That's refreshing.

Yeah. I've already had some other whiny parents call about this issue. So whatever you're about to say, just save it.

Yeah. So I don't think any of you really understand that it was my child's birthday party, so I get to make the rules. Oh.

Yeah.

You know I paid for all the bears, right? I didn't see your credit card plop down on the desk at Build-A-Bear. It was mine.

Tears. Oh, my gosh. Give me a break.

This was a birthday party, not a charity event to give bears to the less fortunate.

Go get together and report me to the Build-A-Bear police. God, who cares if it's done?

I'm sorry, man. She just said, like, basically you kept making excuses, so I wanted to help her out.

I will say, like, you are a really nice guy. Like, you were really hospitable. You were really cordial. You didn't try anything crazy.

Sorry, Michael. I'm actually engaged.

Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. He knows all about it, and he thinks it's hilarious. Oh, okay. Oh, my God.

Yeah, Michael, you definitely got to be more aware of your surroundings and don't bring people to your house. Okay.

Hello.

I'm speaking. Oh. Hey, Megan. Hey. Hey. Hello. You are so friendly.

oh my god oh my god you're just freaking out you sound excited but uh no that's the word well i don't know what okay wait you said michael like michael called you yeah yeah well

Oh, my gosh. I cannot believe this is happening.

I don't know if I'd say excited. Okay. Are you embarrassed? Embarrassed for you? Absolutely, 100%. Why? I thought it was him.

Okay, I don't even know where to begin. I really don't even know if I should tell you.

Yeah. So let me just say, I've never done anything like this before. What do you mean?

I swear. Seriously, guys, I'm a good person.

What are you talking about? Okay, so I kind of didn't bump into Michael at the grocery store, like not by accident.

I don't know if he told you like we met in a grocery store or not.

Yeah, well, I'm kind of like I know his ex-girlfriend. Wait, what? Yeah, like we're in a book club together. So, you know, we're girl pals. We chill, we talk, you know.

Yeah, I kind of followed him there because... Oh, why? She basically was, like, venting one day, and she was like, my ex-boyfriend won't give me back my guitar. Oh, my God. One thing leads to the next. And, yeah, so we kind of set up to, you know, run into Michael at the grocery store.

I didn't steal anything. That's hers. Oh, man. Yeah.

Michael. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. I really am.

Yeah, I flipped it outside the door when I went to the bathroom. Oh.

My actual winning fish, Cleo, gone.

Thank you. Hi guys.

I haven't even adopted another pet, so not even an option.

All right. I went on this date with Mark, a very lovely man.

We met at an art gallery, actually.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes, actually it was.

So I was just checking out this piece of art and this cute guy just kind of started talking to me about it. And we just kept chatting and walking and we were both very spontaneous. So we just went out for a very late lunch. Okay.

He's like, oh, I know this spot with all these food trucks. Let's go there. So we did.

Yeah, you'd think that.

So we get tacos, and we're comparing toppings. We're trying each other's stuff. It's really fun and cute. And I like him. I especially like him because he's asking me very thoughtful questions. Can you give us an example?

He asked me, what is the weirdest compliment I've ever received?

I was like, I can't think of anything. He said, well, I have one. He said someone told him that he has eyes that would make a cat jealous. I kind of laughed because I didn't really know what to make of that.

So we laughed that one off and then he goes, all right, well. What is something that you wouldn't normally tell people on a first date?

So I tell him that I've had some family members might have been in some reenactments of, like, true crime. Their story might have been in some reenactments of true crime. Let's say that.

You said it, not me.

You know, he was trying to pry some details out of me. I don't give it to him. And I go, what about you? And he says, oh, well, I recently got out of a speeding ticket. By looking like a Jonas brother, which I guess was kind of his like bad boy trying to relate to crime. I was like, oh, OK.

Yeah, I thought it was at least interesting.

Yeah.

So the final part of our date, we decide to go into a nearby bookstore and we're just kind of perusing the aisles and then... All of a sudden, it's like one of those things, you know, like the door has like a bell attached to it.

I hear the bell ding and I just instinctively look up and there's Mark and he's just sprinting. He's sprinting away.

Oh my gosh. Yes. And he didn't say anything to me.

I didn't even think of that. But he has my number. And he didn't even... Like, text me to apologize.

No.

Yes.

Yeah, especially for an impromptu date, yeah.

Yeah, this was like a really big deal to me because this is the first connection I've had since I moved here about a month ago.

Just want to say I think you're overreacting a little bit. I think this is kind of a bit much, given what I mentioned.

Well, I can't tell a lot. I can't really share that. And frankly, Mark shouldn't have told that on the line.

Well, and that's why I thought that was a conversation just between you and me. That's why I didn't say the word cartel. That's why I just said, oh, my family has a criminal background.

If you think about it, this really is your fault because you were the one who asked me the question, what would I not tell anyone on a first date? So really, it's kind of your fault.

Now that you've heard everything, like, just know if we do want to go on another date, like, yeah, we can't really, like, text the name of locations, but we can, like, do a code. Are you serious? She's joking. If this is true, why are you so casual about it?

He already outed them. He was the one who said it. I didn't.

I would be a little bit flattered.

Oh, he doesn't remember. Yeah, okay. I'm not calling him back because he ate my goldfish. My pet.

Will he even be able to find them? I doubt it.

You don't have to pay for me. I'm financially taken care of already.

You guys are making light of this, but I'm going to call you later, Mark. We're going to hang out. I'll have a car pick you up.

My name's Megan, and I grew up in Heartland, Four Corners, Vermont. She was a very close childhood friend. I met her at Harland Elementary School. My memory is that she came to town in third grade and we were very close. It's a very small school.

Oh, yes. Yes, I'd be over pretty often. Typically, it would be me and Heidi and Jason would often be there. Jason was a few years younger and really looked up to his sister a lot and was often present. But yeah, we certainly would be at her house a lot. And we had a good friend that lived right across the street. Can you describe her home? What did it look like?

It is a one-story, I believe a Vermont log home, Vermont log cabin with a basement. Heidi had the bedroom in the basement and it was a really large room. It was just filled with family photos everywhere. It was tense. I don't know what I really want to say about her home.

My answer differs with the lens with which I'm looking at it. So when I was young, I felt a lot of sadness for Heidi because... The things that were important to me as a child, the celebratory things like birthdays and holidays, the things I would get the most excited about were things that I would watch her be excluded from. And that always really puzzled me due to her religion.

Her family was Jehovah's Witnesses. So there would be numerous times throughout our childhood where Heidi would have to be picked up from school and taken away because the school was going to celebrate a birthday or celebrate a holiday event.

And I knew that that always made her very sad that she'd often be crying when she'd have to leave her friends over to wait in the hall for her parents to pick her up. So one of the things that I used to do was buy her secret birthday gifts and take them to her. She really loved like Snickers bars, comic books.

So I didn't have a lot of money myself, but I'd always make sure that I at least would sneak her cards and candy on holidays and her birthday so that... She would know she was loved because to me, that was part of showing love. I think acknowledging people, making them feel special on days like that. So that always puzzled me.

After she died, Barry and Linda surprised me by giving me back all the gifts I'd given her. So I think they knew I had done that. I always wondered... if I was unknowingly causing her trouble. But again, that's sort of what I mean by the lens with which I view whether her home was happy or not is different as an adult versus when I was a kid.

In our generation, you didn't ever talk about what was happening at home. Everything was always perfect and you had to always act like everything was fine and not talk if there were things that weren't fine. That was what was normal. So you never really knew what was going on behind closed doors.

Not at length, but I knew that she would be upset or sad sometimes. And you just didn't really ask. It isn't what was done. If you kind of sense that your friend wasn't happy, you would distract them. Maybe it's like, just let's just go do something. And it's more of an escape distraction tactic, I think, is what we would do.

Yeah, it was a Sunday. And I was at a neighbor's house hanging out. And we got a call from her parents, maybe mid-afternoon, asking if Heidi was with us. And she wasn't. So my friends canvassed our other friends looking forward to see if she was over. So I lived a village away from where Heidi lived. I lived in Heartland, Four Corners. Very important distinction.

She's Heartland, Three Corners, a mile down the road. So I looked with our other friends in the Four Corners village and she wasn't anywhere to be found. And we reported that back. The next morning, I got on the bus to go to the high school. And one of the stops was her house on the route. So when the bus stopped at her house, I asked the driver in small town. So could you hold on a moment?

Let me run in and see if she's there. I said she's been missing. And I think in a small town, the driver knew everything. He paused and let me run in the house in the morning to see if they had found her. And they hadn't. And Barry and Linda were at the kitchen table with other people that were there, pretty distraught. So I just left the house, got back on the bus. I didn't know what else to do.

What else could I do? Early in the afternoon, I was playing tennis. I was a tennis player through all the high school. And I was on the court. playing tennis, just trying to go on as if everything were the same and nothing was. And I'm on the court and out of the corner of my eye, I see a guidance counselor and he's making a beeline right for me. And I looked past him and I saw my parents' car.

Now, that was a sign something was seriously wrong. My parents were dairy farmers and never left the farm. I thought, oh God, and I just knew. It was an incredibly dark and incredibly difficult time.

I'm ready to do that, yeah. She reached out to me two years ago and wanted to share some views that she had and some information that she had gathered and wanted to float something by me and asked me if I had ever had reason to wonder about this individual. And when I saw that message come through, I had

a reaction unlike anything I'd ever had before where I literally dropped my phone out of my hands to the floor, like a bad direction in a film. But I was so shocked when I saw the name because I had never told anyone outside of my immediate family of what had happened to me. And here was this name with a, do you think this person could have been involved?

There was a shift that I was working at a supermarket in one town away from Heartland. And I was working as a cashier. And it was probably around dinner time in the evening, five or six o'clock shift. And when he came through and went through my line, said hi, chatted me up. Thought nothing of it. Watched him leave through the windows of the grocery store and get in his truck.

And I didn't think anything about it. And I just was on to the next person. I would like to say 9 is when the grocery store closed. It might have been 9 or 10. But at the end of the shift, I went out. And this is a very tiny town. I can say it was Windsor. It was in Windsor. So that's pretty important. So this is a very small town.

It would be very unusual for there to be vehicles in the parking lot at this grocery store at the end of shift because everyone in the tiny town knew it closed at 9. And I went out and saw that he was still in his truck and he had moved it off to the far end of the parking lot. And I didn't, again, think too much of it. Lights were off. Well, I got in my car and started pulling out.

I noticed that he turned his lights on and started following me out of the lot. And again, not overly concerned by this. He's following me back toward Heartland, which makes sense. And I would occasionally check on my rearview mirror and saw he was still there. But then there is a intersection where I would be turning left and he would be turning right to go to his home.

And I noticed he didn't turn toward his home. He turned and followed me. And I turned left and looked in the mirror, and sure enough, he was still behind me. And I thought, well, that's really odd. So then I started doing the math on that and thought, well, this person has relatives down the street from me. Maybe that's where they're headed.

I went home, and as he went by my driveway, he got into the truck very loudly and sped off. And I sat and I watched to see if he would stop at the relative's house that was down the street from me. And he didn't. He went down to the end of the street and turned right and I could hear the truck just kept going. So he was headed back to his house.

I thought it's very odd that he would follow me home. There were other times that I was followed home from work by the truck and But I never, never could definitively say that I knew that it was him. I didn't see him in the lot when I would leave. But it would again be, it was dark. He was trapped behind me. He was following me. I'd pull into my driveway. I would have gone off.

I'm like, this is so odd. So my bedroom at this time was on the first floor of my parents' farmhouse. And I was on a corner. I had three windows in that bedroom. And kind of a sloping front yard and a dirt road. And it's really hard to...

convey to people that didn't grow up in New England how remote and how isolated and how tuned in you are to the sound of your neighbor's cars, to the sounds of the street. There isn't a lot of noise. There isn't much. And it's really important that you understand that because without those details, you'd think...

You know, you might doubt the senses, you might doubt, but those auditory senses are very real and something that you don't even realize maybe that you're constantly aware of it, but you do, you just know, you pick those things up. It was in the winter specifically that the stalking took a different turn. So I would be in my room and the lights would be on.

I would always have the shades pulled and I would hear these footfalls crunching through very icy snow, breaking the snow. And there's a very specific sound for that. I just remember the first night this happened, I was reading and I could hear these boots, these footfalls coming toward me. off the dirt road, right up to the house. It was maybe 10 or 11 at night.

And the footfalls came right up to one of my windows where my lights were on, right outside. And I was absolutely petrified. I could barely breathe. I could barely move. I was completely frozen, completely petrified. And I felt like so much time had passed that I started tricking myself that maybe I had imagined the footballs and they weren't really there.

And right around when you think, I must have imagined that. The footfalls, the steps turned around and started leaving and walking back out, scrunching their way out to the road. And I hear the car door and that truck, that same truck zooming off.

Yes.

There was very light tapping on the glass. Almost as if it was an enticement to pull the blind. But there was no way in hell that was happening.

Oh, my God. It's absolutely horrifying. Did you ever look out the window? Absolutely not. I was so petrified. I mean, I am learned about myself. I'm I absolutely froze. I could barely it was just I absolutely could not have done that. Nope.

That's absolutely the state of mind I was in. All the women in town wondered why. Who had killed our friend? Was there going to be another murder? There were strings of murders throughout that area at that time. We all were afraid. And it was apparently more important to protect, but protect the wrong person. That happened to me numerous, numerous times before.

Every morning I'd get up and I'd go out and I'd tell my dad, you know, and my dad just, I don't know what was with, weren't overly concerned. But the boot pattern were Sorrel work boots, which is, again, a very specific pattern. It's a star-shaped pattern, little tiny stars. And I noticed the size of the boot. This was a boot that this person always had on.

The footprint looked about the same size. I just knew it was this person. And this occurred on and off throughout the winter. And I would never know when it would happen. It scared the hell out of me. My parents didn't want to do anything. They didn't want to go to the police. They didn't want to cause any problems whatsoever.

They didn't want to approach this person because they felt like this person was in pain and had emotional reasons for behaving in this manner and that I wasn't really in any danger and what was really the harm. What happened next? During this period, I was definitely trying to avoid contact with this person because I had developed a healthy relationship Fear, I suppose.

And was definitely trying to limit interactions with this individual because it was incredibly difficult to act like nothing was going on. There was a reason why I had to reach out to this individual.

I often would babysit for different families around town, like most people my age. And I was babysitting down the street from across from the farmhouse that I lived in. And I was taking care of a young infant. So I waited until the baby was asleep. I put the baby in bed. And I picked up the phone and I reached out and made contact. And I explained the reason for my call. And I made the ask.

And that all seemed fine. I should say he is the person that I was speaking to directly when I called. That's who answered the phone. There was, you know, attempts to act like everything was fine and normal and this was light and bright and easy. And, you know, hey, what's going on? What have you been up to? And here's what I'm doing. And, you know, are you at home?

And I, again, you know, wasn't thinking. I'm like, well, no, I'm babysitting. And I said the name of the family I was sitting for. Didn't really think too much about it. The conversation started taking this really dark turn, very sexual overtones. All of a sudden, kind of out of nowhere, I didn't see it coming. I didn't expect it. And he said to me,

You know, one of the things about you that I've always noticed is you have a mischievous glint in your eye. I was like, why is that? I kind of laughed it off and I'm very uncomfortably. I said, I don't know what you're talking about. You know, I'm just kind of a rascal, I guess, you know, I don't know. And he said, well, you know, I've been growing a beard recently. And I'm like, okay.

He's like, yeah. He goes, you know, it's really, really soft. And I think I'm going to come over there right now and show you how soft it is. I hung up the phone at that point. I was so disgusted and thought, What is this? I already had great fear of this person. And again, that incredible cold fear just went through me. And I thought, I'm in trouble here. I knew he meant it. I knew he meant it.

So I'm frantic. I'm like, what am I going to do? I'm alone in this house. There's no one here except me and this sleeping baby. I tried calling my parents to let them know that I have this situation going. And back in the day, my parents were real fond of taking the phone off the hook so that they couldn't have incoming calls coming in that would wake them up. There was no way to reach them.

911 didn't exist back in those days. I didn't know what to do. I...

made a split second decision that i'm not proud of but the baby was sleeping and i thought i need to race over to my parents house and wake them up and have them help me because again i knew i knew i was in trouble i just knew it i left the baby i ran across the street as fast as i could went into my parents uh bedroom i woke them up i told them what was happening uh they didn't

do anything they didn't come over um i raced back to the house and i got in and i shut the door and as soon as i shut the door here's that truck racing up that the road i could hear it well before i could see it muffler is very loud High rate of speed. It just came blasting down the road, turned into that house where I was at. And he flung the door open off the truck and hopped out.

And this wasn't a winner, too. And this is important to note. He was standing in a white car. undershirt, those sleeveless undershirts, green workman's pants, those very thin cotton pants, no shoes, no socks. And he came right up to the door, ripped open the screen door and tried to get in. And it was a big, heavy wooden door, but like the top half was glass with panes.

So I could see him and he could see me. We were right on the other side. It's like he saw me and he started screaming at me. He's like, you fucking let me in this house right now, you goddamn bitch. And I'm just swearing at me. It was like he was a different person. There was a manic anger and a zeal and a mission. The energy with which he arrived on this doorstep. I'll never forget.

Incredibly aggressive. I really thought he was going to break the door and the glass. I was... almost anticipating a shower and blast that was going to be coming at me because I really thought he was just going to go through it to get in. It was a very predatory feel. I had sound like prey for months. And then here it was, right there. And my heart was racing out of my chest.

And he was just looking at me, trying to get in. And I just... The only thing I could think to say is, my dad knows you're here. And he's coming over with his gun. I saw his face...

completely change and there was just this look that came over him almost like someone had shaken him awake is the way i would describe it and the whole energy shifted and then there was almost sort of a panic almost on his part where he thought what am i doing how am i here and he just hightailed it and got in the truck and immediately left

I have no doubt that I would have had physical harm if I hadn't gotten back and locked that door in time. I have no doubt that my mom probably sat there with her arms folded in the living room window trying to see what was happening across the street.

As far as my dad, I have a memory of being told by my mom that after that night, he called that individual up, and told him that he had better not ever make appearances outside my windows. following me home from work, or showing up anywhere, or my dad was going to take matters into his own hands, which completely sounds like the sort of thing that a man of those days would have said.

And it did stop. That was the last time. I never noticed that I was being followed after that. And the steps outside my window stopped. The visits outside my window stopped. It all stopped after that night, to my knowledge. It's tough. You know, it's a small town. Everybody knows everybody's business. There were reasons why.

I absolutely believe that. One of the things that April and Jason shared with me made me believe that some experiences that they have had with being scared through windows in their home for reactions, there's some behavior I've seen and heard of that's really similar. I absolutely suspect that

that at least one of my other friends probably has had some similar experiences, but that's absolutely just an instinct.

That's really hard to say. Do you ever know what anyone's capable of? I feel I have seen glimpses. of if the right provocation is there, this individual goes to a place in their head or maybe outside of their head where something else takes over. Or yes, I do believe that that could happen. I do.

Because what I've seen with my own eyes and experienced is certainly not the actions of someone incapable There's, I think, a strong streak of violence, of meanness, of cruelty in this person, a real mean streak. And quite frankly, I just think this individual at the very least is a very, very nasty piece of work, almost sadistic with the right opportunity and provocation, desire.

I think it's definitely in the realm of possibility.

Eight people is an eight. That's a lot. At least that we know or that we're considering. Right. All of them. I don't know what I look at. The ones really close to home, Barbara Agnew. Oh, my gosh. Let me count the ways. And Heidi. With Heidi, I don't feel like that was intended to be the way that the others happened. I feel like there's a way to say it.

I feel like she disobeyed, did something she wasn't supposed to do, made someone incredibly angry. They went and found her. And I think things got out of hand. And I think what they've done to others is what happened. If this person hadn't killed before, I don't think Heidi would have been killed. I think Heidi set off a different motive. I don't necessarily think the intent was to take it there.

But my guess is... Knowing her personality, the way she would have stood up for herself, the way that would have incited anger for disobeying an order.

No. She was mouthy, sarcastic, funny, quick. And I maintain no one could have caught her. Whoever caught her knew her. She stopped. Same conversation.

Because she also knew she had to hurry up and get back. Because she knew what would happen if Barry caught her. Sorry. No, but it's true. Like, she was petrified of her parents. So they were very strict disciplinarians. And she was sneaking out to go for that run. And trying to get back before her dad noticed that she had gone. So, and she wasn't one to go socially chit-chatting with, you know.

No, she wasn't. maybe overly, I would be more like that. I think I was a little more of that people pleaser. I would probably be much more likely to have chatted up somebody I didn't know than she would have. Shy, kind of more shy and reserved.

I don't know that for a fact. So I just know what I was told to, because again, I wasn't hanging out with her that weekend. I hadn't seen her since Friday and school. But it was not, it makes sense though. So I knew Linda was working. I think she was working a shift at Howard Johnson's. And because Linda was a, worked at a bank, but she also did cleaning at hotels and,

And I know that Aaron had a friend at the house or was playing with the neighbors, but was not in charge of Jason. And Heidi was in charge of Jason. But Barry was on the property out back, like splitting wood or something. But he was there.

So I don't know that she was babysitting per se, but it would be totally normal, I think, in any day life in that household that she was expected to watch Jason play. Well, Aaron did whatever Aaron wanted to do. And Barry was, you know, out working in the yard, which he would always be out working on the property. Always. So I think that tracks. I don't doubt that story.

But that's how I remember it as well. I mean, just but again, I wasn't there. So I'm hearing that, you know.

just is what the scenario was people like where is she this is what we thought she was doing and she wasn't supposed to go running she supposedly asked Aaron will you watch Jason so I can go run and Aaron said no I don't want to because I'm doing this with my friend and she just left anyway it was again willful they what the family told me about what was happening that day when they were recounting it and that's why I doubt it's I doubt it's wrong what am I saying so I don't know yeah might be wrong

Could be all part of it.

It shook me to my core. I saw that because... The resemblance is, it absolutely resembles the person that I'm discussing and referencing. But if I were to try to draw or have a police sketch of that individual, that's what the drawing would look like. Music

My name's Megan, and I grew up in Heartland, Four Corners, Vermont. She was a very close childhood friend.

She was an incredibly bright and funny, loyal friend, very quick-witted. She had a real love for animals and sports. She was very athletic, rode bikes and skateboarded and was a runner, as many people know. And she really loved her family, her brothers specifically and sister.

My heart hurts, Richard. Richard, you make my heart hurt. Why? Why?

That scared me! I'm gonna eat your breakfast!

1774?

I know.

What?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bless you.

Oh.

I didn't.

Shut up.

You had said you had thought when an intervention was brought up that it would be like that sitting around the conference table. How naive is that? I mean, that's what they show us on TV when they say it's an intervention, right? I think it's like what we think it is. But I think I would love to know...

in a world where, what would have that solution, what would have been the idealistic version of this, where it was the sit down at the table, what would have happened?

What would you want to tell them

Obviously, this is not about me. I have a 17-year-old son. I live 20 miles south of you. My son's in Frisco every night playing soccer, and we have a lot of friends of friends who knew Austin. So the circles got tight, and this hit really close to home. And I'm just so sorry for you. Can you explain to us at all today how you feel?

It's just got to be so... The word I keep coming back to, Megan, is incomprehensible. How could this happen at a track meet?

Hunter, I know you were there. Thank you, Megan. Take your time.

And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Megan, and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today.

Hi, I'm Megan, and I've got a new podcast I think you're going to love. It's called Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today.

And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm so excited to share with you. Confessions of a Female Founder is out now. Hear new episodes each week ad-free on Amazon Music. You can also ask Alexa, Alexa, play Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan on Amazon Music. And she will.

Megan, I want to get your analysis here of the state of the race. The debate is a distant memory. It's only like nine or ten days ago. Where do you think things stand right now? And has Kamala Harris successfully introduced herself to the American people?

99%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay?

Yeah.

Don't.

They're not even really in a place to afford the house that they own with the money that they're making. And we're starting to get this feeling that they're expecting us to take care of them at some point or to do something to help them. And without tapping into our own retirement or savings for our children's college and things like that, we're just really not in that type of space.