Steven Zuber

Yeah.

I disagree.

Um, okay.

I, and partly you said, you just said to it in terms of wellbeing, you know, you asked, you posited that animals can feel pain, but they can't suffer.

I think that they certainly, they can suffer non physical pain.

Dairy cows cry for their kids when they're taken away.

Uh, you know, they, they, they have some attachment to them, something probably akin to, to maternal love.

Um,

You know, some proto version of that.

And they, they are in distress when when they can't care for their offspring.

And likewise, offspring cries for their mom.

But but to the to the extent that you can, if you want to say that animals can feel pain, but they can't suffer, I would also say that they can't experience well being.

No, that's a good point.

Again, I challenge that they can't suffer ways other than pain.

But even if you want to just like more tightly constrain that, I think that you also can't flourish without recognizing my plans came to fruition.

Look at what I've accomplished.

Look at how well my offspring are doing.

Right.

No, I agree.

Absolutely.