Australian Finance Podcast

Inside Qantas' Chairman's Lounge, power abuse and what happens in Canberra

23 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Joe Aston, author of The Chairman's Lounge and prolific financial journalist, joins Owen Rask to dive into corporate ethics, the role of journalists a...

2024 Year in Review: knowing yourself, crypto Gandhi, killer companies and the power of optimistim

19 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Welcome to Rask's 2024 Year in Review. This episode features snippets from an Olympian, Therapist, CEO, Influencers, Authors, Founders and more! Episo...

How Equity Mates was built, asking the right questions and Alec Renehan's favourite media business

16 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this Australian Finance Podcast episode, Owen Rask speaks with Alec Renehan, co-founder of Equity Mates Media, about the business he and Bryce have...

Grant Hackett: rituals, performance, managing 300 staff and using investment bonds

16 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this Australian Finance Podcast episode, your host Owen Rask speaks with Grant Hackett, OAM, who is the CEO of Generation Development Group (ASX: G...

Joint accounts or keep it separate? Let's chat about money & relationships [👶🏼 Family Finance]

11 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

How do you manage money in a relationship? In this episode of our Family Finance Mini-Series, Mitchell Sneddon, Phoebe Kohler, and financial adviser S...

Can you find Hayden's buried treasure?

09 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this Australian Finance Podcast episode, your host Owen Rask speaks with Hayden Smith, co-founder and CTO recap on Hayden's frugal money goals, how...

Kate's lessons from 6 years running the Australian Finance Podcast

05 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Kate's saying goodbye to the Australian Finance Podcast after six years and sharing her top money and investing lessons with you. Stay in touch with K...

How much does childcare cost in Australia? [👶🏼 Family Finance]

04 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

What does childcare cost in Australia? In this episode of our Family Finance Mini-Series, Mitchell Sneddon, Phoebe Kohler, and financial adviser Siobh...

25 ways to save & invest your money in 2025

02 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Ready to kick off 2025 Rask style? Well, we’ve got quite an episode lined up for you today!  Continuing on from the popularity of our saving and in...

Owen's market update (November 24) & our bold predictions for the next decade

28 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Welcome to our monthly-ish market update, where we cover everything you need to know as an investor and discuss practical actions you can take to impr...

Financially planning to start a family in Australia [👶🏼 Family Finance]

27 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Are you financially planning to start a family in Australia? In this episode of our Family Finance Mini-Series, Mitchell Sneddon, Phoebe Kohler, and f...

Tools & models to combat behavioural bias, ft. Betashares' Matthew Fish

25 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Matthew Fish, Head of Product at Betashares, joins Owen Rask on this Australian Finance Podcast episode to talk about the power of technology in comba...

Money coach or financial adviser: what's the difference? Gemma Mitchell explains

21 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Gemma Mitchell is a qualified financial adviser and experienced money coach. Gemma joins Owen on this audio + video episode of The Australian Finance ...

Futureproof your finances against relationship unknowns [👶🏼 Family Finance]

20 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Relationships can be complex, and when you add money to the mix, things can get quite challenging. In this episode in our Family Finance Mini-Series, ...

Creating a financial plan to buy your first home (ft. financial adviser Alex Luck)

18 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Housing on your mind? Kate Campbell interviews financial adviser Alex Luck from Everest Wealth, one of our trusted advice partners at Rask. They discu...

Have I learnt enough about money yet? [🧠 Brain Hacks]

14 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

For our very last episode of Brain Hacks, we want to talk about the number one thing we want you to take away from all our discussions… Take action....

👶🏼 Family Finance: 10 things you don't need to buy for your baby

13 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Are you a new or expecting parent? Then this mini-series is for you! As a parent, the advice, marketing and pressure to buy a huge list of things can ...

How to talk to your parents about money (and having an epic retirement)

11 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Do you want to start talking to your parents about money? Kate Campbell chats with Bec Wilson, an expert on modern retirement. Bec’s mission is to s...

Life changing money habits, financial scams & our book recommendations [Money & Chill]

07 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Money & Chill is back again, and Kate Campbell, Owen Rask, and producer Monique discuss their top life-changing money hacks and habits. Plus, we discu...

Finding good work, life experiments & challenging the default path ft. Paul Millerd

06 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

There’s so much more to life than numbers on a spreadsheet, and in this conversation, we hear from Paul Millerd, who has challenged the default life...

How interest rates work, economics 101 & the housing crisis ft. Dr Sam Wylie

04 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

What on earth is going on with interest rates right now? Dr Sam Wylie, Associate Professor of Finance at the University of Melbourne, explains how int...

ETF Q&A: Currency hedged ETFs, Cam's top ETF for 10 years, influential books and ethical investing

31 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Cameron Gleeson from Betashares joins Owen Rask on this Australian Finance Podcast to explain why currency-hedging matters, the Betashares Gold Bullio...

Our checklist for choosing an active investment

30 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Do humans add value to investing? Mitchell Sneddon, our Head of Funds Management at Rask, shares his checklist for choosing an active investment. 💸...

How to live off dividends forever (aka building an income-generating portfolio)

28 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Have you ever imagined reaching a point where you don’t have to work but choose to? Or you’re able to work part time without worrying about the lo...

Money dates, crushing your goals and Australia's looming property problem, ft. Jessica Brady

24 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this Australian Finance Podcast episode, Owen Rask is joined by former financial adviser and financial literacy advocate Jessica Brady. Topics cove...

7 ways to stay invested (even when you're tempted to sell)

21 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

"Should I sell my investments?" is a question we receive on a daily basis.   Staying invested is hard, and we’ve all been in your shoes. However, ...

How YOLO can damage your financial future [🧠 Brain Hacks]

17 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

You only live once - so you should spend all your savings on that Euro trip...right?! We often discuss the challenge of balancing enjoying the present...

Debt recycling: Adviser Alex Luck explains how debt recycling actually works

14 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Debt Recycling is a confusing finance topic, but it can be a superpower. On this episode of The Australian Finance Podcast, your host Owen Rask brough...

How to have fun & save money on a budget

10 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Money might feel tight right now, but that’s no reason to hole up at home like a hermit. Kate Campbell and Owen Rask share dozens of budget entertai...

Side hustle & small business crash course with Owen & Zara

09 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Want to scale your side hustle into a small business? Owen Rask chats with the co-host of our Australian Business Podcast, Zara McGuffie, about how sh...

How I lost $1 million - John Addis, author of How Not to Lose $1 Million: Win at investing by losing less

07 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

John Addis is the founder of Intelligent Investor and one of Australia's best investment writers. He joins Owen Rask to dive deep into four categories...

Money date activity: your financial wheel of life (with PDF worksheet)

03 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

How satisfied do you feel with your finances on a scale of 1-10? Certified Money Coach Karen Eley shares her favourite money date (or solo date) activ...

ETFs 102: index funds, factors, smart beta & quality investing, ft. Betashares' Tom Wickenden

02 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Tom Wickenden from Betashares joins Owen Rask on this Australian Finance Podcast to explain factor investing, the differences between index ETFs and "...

The true cost of home ownership (from rates & repairs to termite infestations)

30 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

How much does it really cost to own a home in Australia? There’s a lot of focus on buying properties, but being a homeowner involves many costs, whi...

How to invest in the S&P 500 Index [Owen’s September 24 Market Update]

26 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

This episode breaks down the iShares S&P 500 ETF (ASX: IVV), a popular choice for Australian investors seeking low-cost, diversified exposure to top U...

7 money mindset blocks that stop you reaching your goals

23 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

When it comes to achieving financial success, it's not just about the numbers. Our behaviour plays a crucial role in reaching our goals. Certified Mon...

Detoxing our finances, getting a better deal & 6 year's of dinner ideas [Money & Chill]

19 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Money & Chill is back again for September, and Kate Campbell, Owen Rask & producer Monique discuss how they've been detoxing their finances and gettin...

10 years of SHARE investing: here’s what we've learned

16 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Interested in buying shares? This episode is for you. Kate and Owen share their mistakes and lessons from 10 years of share investing, along with insi...

5 ASX high dividend stocks for your watchlist in 2024

12 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Getting income from ASX shares or ETFs is pretty much second to none. The consistency of income, the laws that incentivise boards to pay income to ASX...

6+ money & investing books we're reading in 2024

09 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Chances are, if you listen to the Australian Finance Podcast, you also enjoy reading (audiobooks definitely count). Kate & Owen have learnt so much ab...

How to make a claim on income protection and life insurance [Life Insurance Mini Series - Part 7/7]

08 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Claiming on life insurance, income protection, TPD, Trauma or Childs Cover insurance can be daunting. Life insurance and income protection expert Phil...

How to review your insurance and adjust your cover [Life Insurance Mini Series - Part 6/7]

07 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Reviewing your life insurance and income protection cover is vital. How should you do the insurance review? Life insurance and income protection exper...

Application process for life insurance & income protection (step by step) [Life Insurance Mini Series - Part 5/7]

06 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

How to apply for life insurance and income protection. Life insurance and income protection expert Phil Thompson from Skye Wealth joins Owen Rask on T...

Buying personal insurance: Super, Adviser or DIY [Life Insurance Mini Series - Part 4/7]

05 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

How do you actually buy life insurance and income protection? Life insurance and income protection expert Phil Thompson from Skye Wealth joins Owen Ra...

Income protection insurance ins-and-outs [Life Insurance Mini Series - Part 3/7]

04 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Income protection explained end to end. What is income protection? Expert Phil Thompson from Skye Wealth joins Owen Rask on The Australian Finance Pod...

Lump sum insurance: Life/Death, Disability, Trauma & Childs Cover [Life Insurance Mini Series - Part 2/7]

03 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

What is lump sum insurance like Life Insurance / Death Cover, TPD and Trauma? Life insurance and income protection expert Phil Thompson from Skye Weal...

What is personal insurance? [Life Insurance Mini Series - Part 1/7]

02 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

What is personal insurance? Life insurance and income protection expert Phil Thompson from Skye Wealth joins Owen Rask on The Australian Finance Podca...

6 ways to slash your grocery bill & save money

29 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

I don’t know about you, but reining in our grocery bills is a never-ending challenge this year. In fact, recent ABS CPI data over the twelve months ...

Paul Clitheroe: how to invest and why you should be bullish on Australia

27 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode of The Australian Investors Podcast, Owen Rask and Paul Clitheroe talk about: 1. Paul's money advice to young people 2. The most commo...

What happens when companies fail, emergency funds & investing while travelling [Investing Q&A]

26 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Ever wondered what happens when an ASX-listed company fails? In this episode, Kate Campbell and Owen Rask answer your investing questions about emerge...

$1 million dollars: what would you do? [🧠 Brain Hacks]

23 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

You’ve probably had this discussion with friends or family at some point, particularly when you hear about someone winning the lottery or getting a ...

5+ high interest savings accounts in August 2024 (and how to choose)

19 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

It has been a while since we’ve discussed savings accounts and making sure you’re getting a decent interest rate on your hard-earned savings.  Bu...

Owen's market update (August 2024), emerging markets 101 & RBA rates on hold

15 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Owen Rask, Chief Investment Officer of Rask Invest, delivers his monthly portfolio update for August 2024 on this episode of The Australian Finance Po...

Investing in AI: companies changing the world & the ETFs that hold them

12 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Are you invested in AI? In this episode, Owen Rask chats with Hugh Lam, CFA, an Investment Strategist at Betashares. The duo discusses artificial inte...

Market turbulence, financially detoxing & preventative home maintenance [Money & Chill]

08 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

What's going on with the market right now? On today's episode of Money & Chill, Kate Campbell, Owen Rask, and producer Monique unpack our latest news,...

The story of Pearler & making wealth accessible

05 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

We all need to use a brokerage account to buy shares & ETFs, but what sets them apart? Owen Rask sits down with Pearler CEO & co-founder Nick Nicolaid...

Investing is easy, staying invested is hard: Glen James on finding your why & changing your financial future

01 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Investing is easy. Staying invested is hard. Glen James knows his WHY when it comes to investing and wants to help others do the same. Because knowing...

Why Owen wants to refinance (and how to do it), why Perth house prices are up 24% in one year & your property questions answered by Chris Bates

29 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this Australian Finance Podcast, expert mortgage Chris Bates, co-founder of Flint Group, joins Owen Rask, founder of Rask, to answer your property ...

6 biases that impact investors (and how to manage them) [🧠 Brain Hacks]

25 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

We all have biases that impact how we make decisions and view the world. As investors, when we understand some of the common biases that impact our de...

Using ETFs for passive income (step by step, with ETF examples)

22 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

OwenRask, Chief Investment Officer of Rask Invest, speaks with Betashares Senior Investment Strategist Cameron Gleeson about how to use ETFs for passi...

Owen's market update, his chosen ETFs & economics 101 (June 2024)

19 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Owen Rask, Chief Investment Officer of Rask Invest, delivers his monthly portfolio update for June 2024, on this episode of The Australian Finance Pod...

Owen's first solo episode: celebrating individuality, does Rask use leveraged ETFs & ethical investing

14 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Owen Rask is out in front of the camera for his first solo Investing Q&A episode on The Australian Finance Podcast. Topics covered The importance of ...

Property Q&A: Buying townhouses, should you landscape pre-sale & heritage overlays

12 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

This episode originally aired on the Australian Property Podcast. Buyer's agent Amy Lunardi answers your questions about everything from whether townh...

Saving vs investing at 18, travel money cards and family members asking for money [Adviser Q&A]

08 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Today, we're answering YOUR questions! Financial adviser Siobhan Ashby answers listener questions, from managing money at 18 and travel money cards to...

Get a better interest rate, save on petrol, airline rewards and 100 Baggers [Money & Chill]

04 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

On Money & Chill this month, Kate Campbell chats with Monique and Mitchell about some great money hacks from our community, getting better rates on ou...

Am I doing enough with my finances? Money in your 30s, super balances & comparison traps (Adviser Q&A)

01 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Am I doing enough with my finances? Financial advisers Alex Luck & Daisy Magor discuss money in your 30s, super balances and comparison traps. Financ...

Financially planning to start a family: buying a family home, cash flow during parental leave & big expenses

27 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Financially planning to start a family? Owen Rask and financial adviser Alex Luck discuss key aspects of financial planning to start a family, includi...

Ethics & decision making: how we rationalise our financial choices [🧠 Brain Hacks]

26 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Why don’t we always learn from our mistakes? In this episode of 🧠 Brain Hacks, Kate Campbell and Evan Lucas explore our financial decision-making...

10 money hacks to level up your life in 2024

24 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Ready to level up your financial life? Kate Campbell & Mitchell Sneddon share 10 different money hacks to help you maximise your finances in 2024. Re...

The Wolf of Wall Street: Money lessons & financial scams to avoid

20 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Did you know that The Wolf of Wall Street movie is based on a true story? Today, Kate Campbell and investment scam expert Wadzi Nenzou take a look at ...

Getting financially ready for a career change, redundancy or sabbatical

19 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Do you want to get financially ready to make a career change? Kate Campbell chats with financial advisor Siobhan Ashby from Northeast Wealth about pra...

Dumb Things We've Done With Money: buying NFTs, trading stocks & more

17 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

We've all done dumb things with our money...right? In this episode, Kate Campbell & Owen Rask share some of the silly things we’ve done with our mon...

Superannuation basics: a financial adviser's guide to sorting your retirement out

13 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Superannuation matters, so let's talk about it. Kate Campbell chats with financial advisers from Everest Wealth, Alex Luck and Daisy Magor, about what...

Investor tax return masterclass ft. ATO Assistant Commissioner

10 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Do you pay tax in Australia? This conversation provides an overview of what you need to know as an investor when completing your tax return at the end...

Childcare payments & parental leave: here's what you need to know

06 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Having a child is a big financial decision, so we've got senior financial adviser Siobhan Ashby from Northeast Wealth on the show to run us through th...

How to use debt to invest in shares (ft. Betashares)

04 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Can you use debt to invest in ASX & US shares? Owen Rask discusses how people can use debt to invest, why they might choose this path and some of the ...

Using Dividend Reinvestment Plans (DRPs), investing in quality ETFs & accounting for tax (Investing Q&A)

03 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Kate Campbell and Owen Rask answer YOUR questions in this Investing Q&A episode, covering Dividend Reinvestment Plans (DRPs), investing in quality ETF...

5 reasons your behaviour impacts your investing [🧠 Brain Hacks]

30 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Investing already involves risk, so how can we better manage our behavioural risks? In this episode of 🧠 Brain Hacks, Kate Campbell and Evan Lucas ...

📈 5 things the Investing Pros never talk about | Rask Invest

28 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

To celebrate the launch of Rask Invest, Owen Rask is joined by Mitchell Sneddon to identify and talk about the 5 things none of the Professionals want...

📈 The 10 truths of investing | Rask Invest

27 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

To celebrate the launch of Rask Invest, Owen Rask is joined by Mitchell Sneddon to explain Rask's 10 truths of investing. This originally aired on th...

📈 Where Owen invests & why | Rask Invest

26 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

To celebrate the launch of Rask Invest, Owen Rask is joined by Mitchell Sneddon to explain where he is investing right now and why. This originally a...

Budget meals, US travel tips and Owen's favourite business books [Money & Chill]

23 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

On Money & Chill this month, our producer Monique shares the cost of eating in the US, Kate finds free food, and Owen successfully finds some house si...

Life admin hacks to win back your time, save money & reclaim your headspace

22 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Adulting is hard, so let's make it easier. Author & podcast host Dinah Rowe-Roberts shares her top life admin hacks to help you win back your time and...

ETF Review: Betashares Nasdaq Next Gen 100 ETF (ASX: JNDQ)

19 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

This episode features a review of the Betashares Nasdaq Next Gen 100 ETF (ASX: JNDQ). Kate and Owen explain how JNDQ works, what distinguishes it from...

Invest using the Core & Satellite method: Owen's Market Update Vol. 2 (May 24)

17 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Chief Investment Officer Owen Rask updates listeners on the economy, inflation, interest rates, big news headlines and shares his Cor...

To HECS or not to HECS, bad financial decisions & ESG ETFs (Adviser Q&A)

13 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

To HECS or not to HECS, that is the question! Owen Rask & financial adviser Alex Luck answer YOUR questions today, covering HECS debts, car loans, bui...

Reaching financial independence, buying your time back & personal responsibility ft. Lacey Filipich

09 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Our time is precious, which Lacey Filipich understands better than most of us. But what would you do if money wasn't a barrier? As someone who reached...

Work Backwards: a better way to live and work with Tim Duggan

06 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Do you want to live and work better? In this conversation, we had the opportunity to sit down and chat with media entrepreneur, author and digital nom...

5 books that will change the way you think about money [🧠 Brain Hacks]

02 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Books can have a huge impact on the way we see the world. In this 🧠 Brain Hacks conversation, Kate Campbell and Evan Lucas discuss some of their fa...

Investing in a recession, getting a car loan at 18 & the power of $5 (Investing Q&A)

29 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Should you pay off debt, build your emergency fund or invest first? Kate Campbell and Owen Rask answer YOUR questions on this episode of The Australia...

Private school: is it worth it, how much does it cost & how to prepare for it?

26 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Private or public school: what are your thoughts? The cost of education always raises a lot of debate, so in this episode, Owen Rask and financial adv...

Investment scams (and how to avoid them) with scam fighter Wadzanai Nenzou

23 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

We’ve all watched documentaries and shows on Netflix, such as Tinder Swinder, Inventing Anna, The Wolf of Wall Street, and the FYRE festival, which ...

10 questions to improve your relationship with money

22 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Want to improve your relationship with money? Kate & Owen run through a list of 10 questions you can ask yourself to improve your relationship with mo...

Manage your money better by creating a spending plan with financial coach Karen Eley

19 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Ready to make a plan with your money? Financial coach Karen Eley shows us how to make a spending plan to understand our cash flow and improve our fina...

My HECs debt is larger than my savings, diversifying currency, high income tax bills & lithium stocks (Adviser Q&A)

15 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Owen Rask & financial adviser Alex Luck answer YOUR questions today, covering HECs debts, holding multiple currencies, managing high income tax bills,...

✈️ Travelling in 2024? Our saving & planning tips for your next adventure

11 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Travelling in 2024? Let’s help you successfully plan and save for your upcoming adventure! In this episode, the Rask team share their tips & tricks ...

How to invest in AI, the Nasdaq 100, sector ETFs and beyond, ft. Betashares' Tom Wickenden

10 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

How can I invest in AI? What's the difference between a technology ETF and the Nasdaq 100? Betashares' Tom Wickenden joins Owen Rask on The Australian...

10 years of ETF investing: here’s what we've learned

08 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Investing can be simple: in fact, simple is quite often the best approach. Kate & Owen share what they've learnt during their ETF investing journey in...

Property Q&A: Help, I'm scared by interest rates, does landscaping improve values and first home super scheme

05 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Owen Rask, Chief Investment Officer and founder of The Rask Group, and Chris Bates, mortgage broker and co-founder of Flint Group, are back and answer...

🧠 Brain Hacks: Sticking to your investment plan and avoiding the trap of tinkering

03 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Let's talk about managing the "boring" middle part of your financial journey. In this episode of Brain Hacks, Kate Campbell and Evan Lucas discuss how...