Is Attending to Clinician Distress Our Job? Sara Johnson, Yael Schenker, & Anne Kelly

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GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast 49 min 4 speakers 3 chapters transcribed 10 hours ago

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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

Eric Widera 0:00

This episode of the JerryPal Podcast is CME eligible.

Alex Smith 0:04

To claim credit, please go to the CME tab on jerrypal.org.

Eric Widera 0:09

Welcome to the JerryPow Podcast. This is Eric Wadera.

Alex Smith 0:12

This is Alex

Eric Widera 0:13

Smith. Alex, we got a full house today.

Alex Smith 0:16

We have a full house. We are so delighted to welcome back a good friend, Sarah Johnson, who's a palliative care doctor, an early graduate of UCSF's Hospice Palliative Medicine Fellowship. She's now program director of the Hospice Palliative Medicine Fellowship at the University of Wisconsin. Sarah, welcome to the Jerry Powell podcast.

Sara K. Johnson 0:37

Thanks. Happy to be here.

Alex Smith 0:38

And we're delighted to welcome back Yale Schenker, who's a been a frequent guest on this podcast. She's a palliative care doctor and researcher. She's director of the Palliative Care Research Center or PARC at the University of Pittsburgh, and soon to be the Chief Academic Officer at Denver Health. Yeah, welcome back to JerryPowell.

Yael Schenker 0:58

Thanks for having

Alex Smith 0:59

me. And we're delighted to welcome back Ann Kelly, who's a palliative care social worker, frequent guest and host on this podcast. Check out the clips of Ann eating the hot wings on our 300th anniversary. And she's also chair of the JerryPal steering committee. Anne, welcome back to the Jerry Pell podcast.

Anne Kelly 1:19

Thank you. What a legacy there. Thanks, Alex.

Eric Widera 1:23

Uh we're getting close to our four hundredth episode, Alex. And we're gonna have to think what we're gonna do. We're gonna ramp it up from hotlings.

Alex Smith 1:30

If you have any ideas for interesting podcasts, our three hundredth was Hot One Style Ask Us Anything. And I kinda like the idea of doing that again. But um if you have other innovative ideas.

Eric Widera 1:42

My my bowels will disagree with you on that, Alex.

Yael Schenker 1:46

Definitely more in and more hot.

Eric Widera 1:48

W w when when do we expect our four hundredth? Uh like in

Alex Smith 1:51

I think I calculated spring sometime, yeah.

Eric Widera 1:54

Uh sometime after we'll get on it. All right, but we're not talking about the Jerry Powell podcast. We're gonna be talking about this question of is it our job to manage clinician distress? We're also gonna be talking about it managing interprofessional conflict. Before we dive into those topics, I believe Ann Kelly has a song request.

Anne Kelly 2:16

Out of all the times I've been here, this is a real first.

Eric Widera 2:19

You've never been asked.

Anne Kelly 2:20

I don't think so.

Alex Smith 2:23

For for the three hundredth, I think I did your choice at the either the beginning or the end.

Anne Kelly 2:28

Well this one is even more momentous because I'm delighted to request Dolly Parton. Here I am. And why I know is the following question. Well, number one. You're my

Eric Widera 2:40

guest host. You're asking yourself the same you're asking yourself the question.

Anne Kelly 2:43

I can be all the things. Uh first reason why, because I love her. And any opportunity to get her on this podcast is my delight. Um and Fortunately, the song is like perfect for our topic today, which is sort of reaching out and showing up to support people who might need a little extra TLC. Great. We're

Alex Smith 3:04

not doing that.

Anne Kelly 3:05

I just

Sara K. Johnson 3:05

want to name that's an option too.

Alex Smith 3:07

Uh huh. Or not. Right. Or not. I'm not here. Don't nothing to see here. Don't walk this way. If every listeners know

Eric Widera 3:16

Dolly Parton, have her come on our four hundredth podcast. Alex hit it.

Alex Smith 3:20

Yeah, we should. Yeah, I'm gonna sing this more like Greg Brown meets Dolly Parton style, because I'm not gonna try to do Dolly Parton. Here's a little bit.

3:35

If you need a love that's true, need someone to stand by you. Here I am. Here I am. Here I am.

Illia Polosukhin 3:48

Yeah.

3:50

If you need a helping hand, need someone to understand. Here I am. Oh here I am, here I am. Here I am, I'm reaching out to give you love that you're without. I can't help you find what you've been searching for. Here I am, come to me, take my hand, cause I believe I can give you all the love you need and more. Oh here I am. Here I am, here I am.

Eric Widera 4:40

Thank you.

Anne Kelly 4:40

That was so good. Thank you, Alex.

Alex Smith 4:43

Thanks, Ann. That was impressive.

Eric Widera 4:45

Great

Alex Smith 4:45

lyrics.

Eric Widera 4:46

Okay, let's dive into this topic. So we're gonna be talking about: is it our job to manage clinician distress? How to manage interprofessional conflict. Kinda like When the suffering is coming from within, you never watch those horror films like the phone call is actually coming from within the house.

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Chapters

3 chapters

1 What is the main topic discussed in this episode? 0:00–7:14 2 What is the central question about whether managing clinician distress is part of our role? 7:14–41:54 3 How does the case of a ventilated ICU patient illustrate clinician distress and conflict? 41:54–49:00

Speakers

4 identified

Anne Kelly 9 min Eric Widera 9 min Alex Smith 6 min Illia Polosukhin

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Topics in this episode

Alex 1 Sarah 3 Dolly Parton 1 UCSF 1 Yale 2 Eric Widera 2 Anne 1 University of Wisconsin 1 Elizabeth Chung 1 Harry Hahn 1 University of Pittsburgh 1 Susan Nelson 1

Source

Recorded18 Dec 2025

Publisherrss.libsyn.com ↗

Transcriptspeaker-named · 100+ languages

Handlerec:20524479

Show notes

Have you had one of those consults in which you're thinking, huh, sounds like the patient's goals are clear, it's really that the clinician consulting us disagrees with those goals? To what extent is it our job as consultants to navigate, manage, or attend to clinician distress? What happens when that clinician distress leads eventually to conflict between the consulting clinician and the palliative care team? Today our guests Sara Johnson, Yael Schenker, & Anne Kelly discuss these issues, including: A recent paper first authored by Yael asking if attending to clinician distress is our job, published in JPSM. See also the wonderful conversation in the response letters from multidisciplinary providers (e.g. of course that's our job! And physicians may not be trained in therapy, but many social workers and chaplains are, and certainly psychologists). A SPACE pneumonic for addressing clinician conflict developed by Sara Johnson, Anne Kelly and others. They presented this at a recent AAHPM/HPNA meeting. See below for what SPACE stands for. We referenced a prior episode on therapeutic presence and creating a holding space with Kerri Brenner and Dani Chammas, and this article by Kerri. We talked about the role of the consultant, including this classic paper on consultation etiquette by Diane Meier and Larry Beresford. Enjoy! -Alex Smith SPACE: Navigating Conflict with Colleagues "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response." -Viktor E. Frankl SPACE: Conflict Navigation Toolkit Self-awareness: Pause & Notice Before Responding What am I feeling? Take own temperature. Where am I coming from? What do I need? Perspective-Taking: Ask-Tell-Ask Where are they coming from? Check your understanding with them. "Tell me how you're thinking about this?" "I hear you are concerned about…is that right?" Agenda: Yours and theirs, then focus on common ground Where are we going together? "It seems like we both want…" Curiosity: Reframe and explore to understand Am I missing anything? Why is this kind, smart & hard-working colleague thinking differently than I am? "To help me better understand, what is your biggest concern about…?" Empathy: For others: Empathic statements around the situation & silence For self: Your feelings are valid, reflect on it later. You will misstep in tense moments: apologize, learn from it. Eating helps. Authors: Ethan Silverman MD University of Pittsburgh Anne Kelly LCSW San Francisco VA Health Care System Jasmine Hudnall DO Gundersen Health System Cassie Shumway MS, RN, OCN, CHPN UW Health Hospitals & Clinics Andrew O'Donnell RN University of Wisconsin Sara K. Johnson MD University of Wisconsin

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