The Nerve with Maureen Callahan
The Real Jon Hamm is Not Who You Think, Plus What Happens When "Mean Girls" Grow Up and Get Meaner
Tue, 22 Apr 2025
On the debut of "The Nerve with Maureen Callahan," Maureen gets into the real Jon Hamm, in a segment you won't see anywhere else - a horrifying story of an alleged hazing Hamm did as a frat brother, the dismissive way Hamm has addressed the incident in recent years, his past relationships, his penchant for playing a certain type of character, and his manufactured PR image today. You’ll never look at him the same way again. Plus, a deep dive on adult female friendships as portrayed in "The Real Housewives," and how "mean girls" only seem to grow up get meaner with age, featuring behavioral analyst Dr. Erin Foster. And author Susannah Cahalan joins to discuss her new book "The Acid Queen," and the story behind her hit memoir "Brain on Fire."Guests:Susannah Cahalan: https://www.susannahcahalan.com/aboutDr. Erin Foster: drerinfoster.com
Chapter 1: Who is Maureen Callahan and what is the show 'The Nerve' about?
Hello and welcome. Welcome to The Nerve. I'm Maureen Callahan. I'm your host. It's episode one. So I want to tell you a little bit about what to expect. This is a non-safe space. This is a space where we are going to talk about all of the things in pop culture, celebrity scandal, crime.
books fashion music you name it we're covering it um we're gonna kick off today with an incredible little reported story involving an a-list star who you will never look at the same way again i to my mind think this guy is worse than harvey weinstein and that says a lot because i think harvey weinstein's a pretty bad guy um and i also just wanted to take a moment to thank everybody who sent me messages
over the past few days after hearing how nervous I was on Megyn Kelly's show last Friday. I saw them all, I read them. They really have helped me a lot. I was so preoccupied after leaving Megyn's studio and I've been doing her show in that studio for, I'm gonna say like a couple of years now.
So I know how to get from point A to point B. And I was walking out of the studio, back to the car, the lovely driver who was taking me home I had my head down. I was so consumed with my own nerves and preoccupations. I walked straight into a branch, a knotty, thick tree branch. I get to the car door. This driver's like, you're bleeding. I'm like, are you serious? I pull out my compact.
I'm like, my entire upper face is just bleeding. I can't even see the source of the bleed. You know, like your head, you get the tiniest laceration and it's just like a geyser is gushing. Like I get in the back of the car. I'm like, sir, I'm so sorry. I'm not going to get blood anywhere, but I am bleeding out. He says, do you want to go back? And I was like, absolutely not.
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Chapter 2: What is the controversy surrounding Jon Hamm's alleged fraternity hazing?
I'm completely mortified. Anyway, I have since gotten it together. I can assure you. And I think we should just get into it. So the first person I would like to take aim at in our very first show is one Jon Hamm. And this segment, I promise you, you're never going to forget what you hear.
He is everywhere right now because he's got a show on Apple called Your Friends and Neighbors and it's number one. I don't know if it's like number one all over or if it's just number one in drama, but it's doing really well. It's already been renewed and he just did SNL to promote it. Let's take a little bit of a look at that.
But even though it's been a while, I've still been on the show a lot. In fact, I was checking my own Wikipedia, which I often do, and I found out that since then, I've made 14 cameos. Yeah.
Okay, number one, he was looking at his own Wikipedia, which I would bet there's a big part of that Wikipedia that he would love to have just deleted. But he doesn't mention that. Instead, he's congratulating himself on being so freaking awesome. He's Jon Hamm and you're not. Are you as impressed with Jon Hamm as Jon Hamm is? I don't know that you could be.
Take a look at him on his good friend Jimmy Fallon's show last week.
You are a stud! You are a stud, Jon Hamm! Come on! I love you, bud. You're never wrong. You're never wrong.
I think all of us have been wrong about Jon Hamm for a very long time. You know, when he first burst on the scene with Mad Men, I mean, everyone, myself included, had a huge crush on this guy. And he sort of really kind of came in and was like a throwback to a very old school kind of masculinity. And even today, he still kind of has it.
You know, he's really in stark contrast to like the Timothée Chalamet's and those like fey, twee little guys who don't quite read as, I think, traditionally masculine, fair, whatever. But I would also like to say this before we get into the scandal that he has successfully ridden out and hidden lo these many years.
Having just acted myself in a short little film called With Love, Meghan, that's Meghan with a Y, in which Megyn Kelly portrayed a Meghan Markle adjacent character. in which I portrayed a Mindy Kaling adjacent character, one who displayed really just fear and servility and felt like a hostage throughout the whole thing. You know, we've gotten some really nice notices.
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Chapter 3: How has Jon Hamm's public persona and acting career been characterized?
If you've ever had rib cage pain, if you've ever broken a rib or had surgery, you know what that's like. He's worried that he's going to lose his kidney. The whole right side of my body, Mark tells them, is swollen severely. He has tried to give me medication to stop the swelling on my back, but it doesn't work. It doesn't help. Another pledge who survived that night said in his statement,
that he was so scared, even though he lives three hours away, that he was so scared to return to Austin because, quote, he doesn't know to what extent they, Jon Hamm and his frat brothers, will go to get even for reporting this crime. Now, if I remember this correctly, because I remember reading about it when it first came out, and nobody really covered it.
It didn't really get picked up, and I could never understand why. People have been canceled for a lot less. I mean, Kevin Spacey right now is selling off every piece of real estate he's ever purchased during his long and storied career. As far as I know, he has never been convicted of rape. He has never been criminally convicted in a court of law in America.
I think he got convicted of something in the UK. But, you know, really, he was kind of a pig and he was gross and he was handsy. He didn't do anything approaching this, as far as I know. Kevin Spacey can't get hired. Alec Baldwin is making a movie in Italy right now, okay? He just finished a reality show that was an attempt to clean up his image.
He shot and killed a woman on a set that he ran that saw the bulk of the crew members walk out the day of the shooting over firearm safety concerns. But because Jon Hamm looks like this, By the way, this is the new interview magazine. He's interviewed by his good friend, Tina Fey, in which they just tongue bathe each other.
He says to her, it's not fun to work with people that aren't fun, like him, I guess. He also says that he's a firm subscriber to the no assholes policy, because if you're on that list of being an asshole, you're not getting calls. Not for nothing, but Tina Fey,
admitted in her book bossy pants and she's spoken about this in interviews you can google them you'll find them that she was a mean girl in high school this is another topic we're gonna get to later in the show mean girls and i always wondered about people like her like Kirsten Wiig, who sort of like helped Jon Hamm enter that SNL little clique, that comedy world.
And my theory about them is that they were never the homecoming queens. They were the comedy nerd girls who kind of didn't fit in. And a guy like Jon Hamm comes along and pays them some attention. and their knees buckle. They can't believe it. They can't believe a guy this hot would look twice at them. And so they're doing dirty work for him, in my opinion.
You can't tell me they don't know about this. If I know about it, they have to know about it. And now we all know about it. There's another thing I want to And this goes to who in Hollywood is a protected class? Who in Hollywood will be kick summarily kicked out and never hired again? And who is just sort of considered like kind of a bad boy?
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Chapter 4: What details are revealed about the fraternity hazing incident involving Jon Hamm?
He marries her and he starts giving interviews about how he thinks he wants children now, which I'm sure Jennifer Westfeld is so happy she sacrificed so much of her own dreams and life ambitions for that piece of shit. And finally, in fairness to Jon Hamm, which I think is more than he deserves, he did address these
accusations this reporting of the fraternity hazing that nearly killed a kid a kid by the way who went on to become a doctor and a lawyer okay and he specializes in what do you think medical malpractice okay that guy is a true contributing member of society what did john ham become a celebrity are you kidding me john ham told esquire in i think 2015
of the allegations quote i wouldn't say it's accurate everything about that is sensationalized not a denial i was accused of these things i don't ellipses it's so hard to get into i don't want to give it any more breath not a denial it was a bummer of a thing that happened break that apart a bummer a bummer is like you go to the surf shop and they're out of your favorite like you know
oil or whatever this is not a bummer this is not a summer bummer this is a vicious assault on a defenseless kid you bullied bullied and bullied him because he wanted to be cool like you a bummer of a thing that happened it didn't happen john you did it
you assaulted somebody i was caught up he continues i was caught up poor me i i i me me me i was caught up in a big situation a stupid kid in a stupid situation a bummer i moved on from it well i don't think that mark allen sanders will probably ever move on from it from the trauma from whatever lasting medical damage that you inflicted on him this guy is lucky he escaped with his life and john ham gets to go sit on jimmy fallon
and laugh it up about what a cool guy he is. Fuck that guy. OK, segment one, we're done. And we're going to move on in the next segment to a really deep dive on mean girls in adulthood. Let me tell you a story about a guy named Leo Grillo. While on a road trip, Leo came across a Doberman. This dog was severely underweight and clearly in trouble. Leo rescued that Doberman and named him Delta.
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Chapter 5: How did Jon Hamm respond publicly to the fraternity hazing allegations?
Or do you consider the source and say, am I suffering a fool? And do I protect myself by having a boundary and walking away? So I always look at what is the longevity of the friendship? Has there been shared mutual experiences that have bonded us in trust and respect and admiration? And if I can say yes, then I say yes. You go to a friend and say yes. This is what I perceived happened.
This is how I felt about it. I'd like to discuss it. If you don't believe that will be well received and if you believe that you and you have evidence to suggest that it's only going to continue, cut your losses, walk away because that's having a boundary and boundaries are healthy.
You know, I feel like it's so easy to say that. I think, you know, when most women are confronted with a decision like that, you know, you really have to parse it out in your, first of all, I think you have to just calm down and get to the point where the emotions have subsided and you can begin to think a little bit logically.
Like you said, evaluate the length of the friendship, the depth of the friendship, you know, the importance of it. Because I do think, and I think a lot of women feel this way. I certainly do. A friendship breakup, a best friendship breakup, can be as devastating, if not more so, than the breakup of a romantic relationship. Can you talk to that?
So women friendship is really rooted in a mutual understanding. We have experiences.
that we don't have with men friends or romantic partners and there is a deep understanding it's the connectivity and the bonding comes in shared experience and things that we go through as women and there's a significant amount of trust there and so losing a deep friendship is incredibly wounding because it's destabilizing a piece of your identity and
Women have so many roles that we play that that participate in who we are and so many roles that define who we are. And when you feel like you have someone that has your back and you lose that, you're losing a sense of self.
Before I let you go, I want to ask you, what would you advise? You know, it's one thing for women to sort of hash this out. And, you know, we have we've been through adolescence. Our brains are fully formed now.
what would you advise you tell a child in your life, be it your daughter, a niece, a godchild, who is dealing with this stuff day in and day out at school, where the alliances shift by the minute? What would you say to a kid who is struggling with this stuff?
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Chapter 6: What examples illustrate 'mean girls' behavior in adulthood?
We should look at hospitals that are better equipped to deal with her.
Just take the pills.
She needs all of us.
We will find the answer. Her life is in your hands.
Tell me what is wrong with my daughter.
You must be the famous Susanna.
I'm scared.
I know she's still in there.
She's just trapped. I promise you, I'm going to do everything I can to find you.
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Chapter 7: What insights does Dr. Erin Foster provide on why mean girl behavior persists in adults?
What a question. What a beautiful question. And so, I mean, I think you're onto something there. It's so hard for me to genuinely access the person I was before and compare that. But I do feel to talk in this kind of, you know, non-rationalist way, but when you cross a line, whether you want to call it another realm, another state of consciousness. You know, I had out-of-body experiences. Really?
I saw myself from above. You did? I did. I saw myself on the television. I saw floating eyes looking at me. I mean, I had, at one point, I felt I was so powerful. I had the ability to kind of mess with time. I had really strange altered states, but profound altered states. And not all of them, most of them extremely negative, but not all of them.
And I think just so much of what Brain on Fire was, was an urge and a desire to like harness it and to explain it. This can be explained through neuroscience. We can understand that this part of the brain can create hallucinations. So this is not me. It's something that happened to me. I think in a lot of ways, it was a way of like moving away from that kind of openness because It was scary.
And I wanted to kind of assert my sanity in some way. Right. You know, we met at the New York Post tabloid news reporters. You want people to take you seriously? You know, so putting that book out was a way of saying, no, no, no, I'm good. I'm not mentally ill. I have this autoimmune disease and I'm back on solid ground.
And then the year since I wrote another book about psychiatry and the limits there and the limits of medicine in general. I started becoming more and more open to, you know, a non-materialist, you know, this idea that there are things that we can't explain with the kind of rational world, that there are... kind of other realms and there are other ways of thinking and ways of being.
And, you know, I, of course I like, I don't want my head to get, you know, I don't want my brain to fall out of my head by being too open. So I'm always careful not to go too far, but I think that you're, I think you're onto something. I think that experience changed me. And I think in that way of making me, you know, kind of touching down on this other, other possibilities out there.
I think that that's undeniable for sure. Yeah.
I remember, so you were one of my first calls after I had what I can only describe as, I couldn't call it that at the time. I have come to think of it, well, I'll just set it up. I called you about, I think it was the day after my dad died.
and uh you know i had been very very close to him but the last year of his life he was particularly difficult and we did not have the greatest connection uh and um i was staying at my childhood home with my dog and um in the middle of the night i jackknifed out of bed when i heard like a boom, like it was a boom. It was the front door of the house had been kicked in.
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Chapter 8: How does social media impact adult female aggression and mean girl dynamics?
just vacate yourself and you vacate your life and you vacate planet Earth and you're nowhere to be found and you're living under an alias and you live in fear that anybody might figure out who you are and turn you in and your life will be over. I mean, talk a little bit about how long Rosemary stayed underground and the toll that that took on her.
She was underground for 25 years. And she was living, you know, basically at the poverty line. She somehow still filed her taxes at various points. So I could see that she made about $12,000 a year running it in. Don't fuck with the IRS. Yeah, seriously. You can run from the feds, but not the IRS. With her fake name, she filed her taxes. And, you know, she really...
And, you know, she was terrified of breaking the law in any way. I mean, she drove like 15 miles an hour everywhere. She was constantly looking at people thinking they recognized her. Imagine being that seen all the time, but also being completely unseen because no one really knows who you are. So it was a state of like being hypervigilant, but also invisible. And it was stressful.
It was stressful. And, and also, I mean, she couldn't, she had no money and she was under, underground. She didn't have health, healthcare. So she couldn't go to a dentist, you know, and she died very young. She died at 66. And I think a great deal of that is due to the lack of healthcare and also the massive amounts of stress she was under when she was underground.
And I think to the loneliness, and I think that's why this story is so resonant and poignant and moving and also just unbelievable. Again, you've got to get the book, The Ass of Queen. It's out today. But I think all of us who are still kind of crawling out of the trauma that was COVID lockdown have a real true understanding of the toll that isolation is.
from other human beings, from being seen by other human beings, what that really does to you.
That's beautiful. And I think that's so true. And I think, you know, she developed this armor around herself and she was a very open, we talk about openness, like she's you know, she was extremely open and the psychedelics opened her up even further.
And when her husband turned on her, when the world really turned on her, she developed this armor as a way of protecting herself, but it wasn't a natural state. And I think in some ways it was very difficult for her to maintain that distance from people, but she, It had calloused over to the point where she really kind of forgot that magical quality that really defines her in her earlier years.
She kind of had to let that go, which is very tragic.
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