Welcome to part two of our Best of 2025 series - the moments that changed how our listeners think about their health and what they do on a day-to-day basis. In this episode, we delve into simple questions with profound impact. Is it safe to experiment with your own health? Does cheese really cause bad dreams? Why do some breakfasts leave you tired and hungry, while others don’t? If you’re looking for practical, science-led ideas you can take into the year ahead, this episode brings together the insights listeners found most useful, surprising, and worth returning to. Unwrap the truth about your food 👉 Get the ZOE app 🌱 Try our new plant based wholefood supplement - Daily 30+ *Naturally high in copper which contributes to normal energy yielding metabolism and the normal function of the immune system Follow ZOE on Instagram. Timecodes 00:00 Intro 01:00 How much should we experiment with our own health? 03:48 Can a 47-year-old really be healthier than a teenager? 07:35 Why poor sleep makes everything feel like a threat 10:07 Why sleep is not optional for better health 10:33 The simple morning habit that improves sleep at night 11:19 The surprising exercise that may help you sleep better 12:45 Why your phone shouldn’t be in your bedroom 13:40 Why sleep rules shouldn’t become another source of stress 14:26 Does cheese before bed really cause nightmares? 15:40 Are oats actually good for you? 16:25 The large study linking oats to lower disease risk 18:40 What happened when Jonathan tested his blood sugar after oats 19:55 Why instant oats caused a huge blood sugar spike 22:20 How adding fat and protein changes your blood sugar response 24:37 Why not all oats are created equal 27:14 What arthritis pain actually feels like day to day 28:00 The trial that showed lifestyle changes can improve arthritis 31:55 Some patients improved enough to stop medication 32:45 The simple plate method for joint-friendly eating 36:05 Why muscle is critical for blood sugar and inflammation 39:05 The shocking truth about weight loss and muscle loss 41:53 What a realistic muscle-protecting workout looks like 44:50 The key ideas to take into a healthier 2026 📚Books by our ZOE Scientists The Food For Life Cookbook Every Body Should Know This by Dr Federica Amati Food For Life by Prof. Tim Spector Ferment by Prof. Tim Spector Free resources from ZOE Live Healthier: Top 10 Tips From ZOE Science & Nutrition Gut Guide - For a Healthier Microbiome in Weeks Better Breakfast Guide ZOE’s Holiday Hosting Guide Mentioned in today's episode Oatmeal particle size alters glycemic index but not as a function of gastric emptying rate, 2017, Nutrient Sensing, Nutrition, and Metabolism Urinary pesticide concentrations in French adults with low and high organic food consumption: results from the general population-based NutriNet-Santé, 2019, Journal of Exposure Science & Environmental Epidemiology Oat Intake and Risk of Type 2 Diabetes, Cardiovascular Disease and All-Cause Mortality: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis, 2021, Nutrients The effect of oat β-glucan on LDL-cholesterol, non-HDL-cholesterol and apoB for CVD risk reduction: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomised-controlled trials, 2016, British Journal of Nutrition A multidisciplinary lifestyle program for rheumatoid arthritis: the 'Plants for Joints' randomized controlled trial, 2023, published in Rheumatology A multidisciplinary lifestyle program for metabolic syndrome-associated osteoarthritis: the "Plants for Joints" randomized controlled trial, 2023, published in Osteoarthritis and Cartilage Gut-microbiota-targeted diets modulate human immune status, 2021, published in Cell Have feedback or a topic you'd like us to cover? Let us know here. Episode transcripts are available here.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Welcome to ZOE Science and Nutrition, where world-leading scientists explain how their research can improve your health.
Chapter 2: How much should we experiment with our own health?
Welcome back to part two of our 2025 highlights, the moments that changed how we think about our health and give us practical tools to feel better every day. Today, you'll hear what happened when I put my own breakfast under the microscope, how arthritis symptoms were reversed in a groundbreaking trial, and we finally get a scientific answer to the question, does cheese really cause nightmares?
Chapter 3: Can a 47-year-old really be healthier than a teenager?
But first, a person who has arguably pushed the boundaries more than anyone, Brian Johnson. Brian has dedicated his life and his body to testing cutting-edge health interventions to slow down aging. His meticulous approach to sleep, diet, and exercise has sparked global debate and raises a question that matters for all of us. How much should we experiment with our own health?
I began by asking him how he developed his unique way of living.
We wanted to approach this question scientifically. And so I hired 30 medical professionals.
Chapter 4: Why is sleep essential for better health?
And we went through this process where we evaluated all the scientific literature on healthspan, lifespan. We tried to grade the evidence that we could identify. Do we think, for example, a given therapy, let's say it slows down the speed of aging or reverses aging damage to a certain degree, do we believe the evidence?
And then we stacked ranked all the evidence and said, okay, we have our list and let's just start with number one and let's do that therapy or that measurement.
Chapter 5: Does cheese before bed really cause nightmares?
And so we, we had a firm principle that we would do everything based upon measurement and scientific evidence.
Chapter 6: Are oats actually good for you?
And so I became the most measured person in human history.
Chapter 7: What is the link between oats and lower disease risk?
There's more data on my body than anyone before me. That's amazing. And we've just gone through this process of measurement, uh, application of the science and again and again, uh, And I think it's possible that they have the best comprehensive health markers of anybody in the world.
you know, take 50 different markers from my sleep quality to my inflammation levels, to uric acid, to muscle, to fat, to take any marker. We're going to share this actually in the next coming days, but it's really a contemplation of like, what does health look like? And comprehensively from how you sleep to what your microbiome looks like to your biological age, your methylation patterns.
So we really have tried to just do this by the data and numbers and with as little storytelling as possible.
And Brian, when you say the best possible markers, do you mean the best possible markers for someone of your age? Or are you saying that they're better than my 16-year-old son?
And so in every biological age marker, there's typically a ideal age. So for example, like in grip strength, as you grow older, you increase in grip strength capacity.
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Chapter 8: How can lifestyle changes improve arthritis symptoms?
Then you hit a certain age, you decline in grip capacity. And that is true for a lot of things. That's your cardiovascular fitness. It peaks at age 18 and then declines from there. And so we've tried to identify the peak age health level of every category of every marker. And we try to peg that. So we say, what is peak cardiovascular fitness for an 18-year-old? And then how do I achieve that?
So for example, my cardiovascular fitness is equal to top 1.5% of 18-year-olds as measured by VO2max. We completed a test today looking at oxygenation of muscles. And so that's also a marker of age. So my oxygenation of my muscle is in the top 5% of 18-year-olds, elite swimmers. And so we try to find peak levels and then peg my markers to that as best we can.
If I understand right, you are saying that, yes, you are better than my 16-year-old son, basically, on all of these markers.
Yes. I mean, if you basically said, a conventional wisdom would say, a 47-year-old could never be as healthy as a 16-year-old. Now, in certain regards, that's You're probably true, right? They have the anatomy of a 16-year-old. I have anatomy of a 47-year-old. And there's just some things our technologies can't do today.
However, if you compare the 16-year-old and me on these markers, inflammation, sleep quality, cardiovascular ability, bone mineral density, down the line, it's possible my health markers are in fact better than these 16-year-olds.
That's amazing. Listening to Brian, I was struck by the contrast between his extreme routine and the much smaller health experiments most of us might want to try. My Zoe co-founder, Professor Tim Spector, Brian and I shared a really honest, useful exchange about what's safe, what isn't, and where to start.
One question I think a lot of listeners will have listening to this is, is it safe to experiment on my health? So how should people, if you were going to advise anyone listening to this, thinking about experimenting with their health but wanting to do it safely, what would you be saying, Tim?
I think... It's reasonable to explore, particularly with, say, sleep, exercise, and food. If you do it for short periods of time and you're not going to overdo it, it's probably reasonably safe if you don't have any other medical conditions and you're fairly young and healthy. Everything I believe in now is about self-experimentation because everyone is different.
And learning what sleep is good for you, how much exercise is good for you, what the right diets, you know, what are personalized to you, or you should be on a high fat or a high carb diet. These all require some self-experimentation, you know, if you don't have access to things like Zoe program. But I think I would do it for short periods of time. You know, the danger is if you overdo it.
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