Matt Clifford

And today, of course, Anthropic, I think even now, describes itself as an AI safety research company.

Do you want to talk a little bit about the kind of importance of this idea in the founding journey of both OpenAI and Anthropic?

So if you were writing the report card on the world for how we're doing on this, where would you get to?

So for listeners, Jack and I have known each other for quite a long time before Anthropic, but we started really getting to know each other better when I was working in UK government and Jack was obviously doing his role in Anthropic and we worked together on creating the UK AC and the first AI Safety Summit.

And these were sort of early efforts to try and

dip our toes into this coordination.

That was nearly three years ago.

Lots has changed.

How do you think we're doing?

Well, and some of them did, not Jack.

But I remember a very well-known person in AI saying to me,

I just can't believe that you'll be better than us at machine learning evaluations.

I remember saying, no, but I really hope we're better at bioweapons.

And so joking aside, that is part of the answer, I think.

And to Jack's credit, I think he saw this very, very early that both from a legitimacy perspective and a capacity perspective, there are some things that only governments can do.

The reason I...

sort of slightly messed up my life in 2023 to get involved in this is that I really believe that it was both first order good, like it's just a good thing for the world that these things, AI Security Institute exists and can do this work.

But I also think the second order effect of building state capacity in the UK to have a lot of AI experts in government actually understanding what's happening would have a bunch of second order benefits for the UK.

Now, to your point, could...

you know, anthropic open AI, Google, you know, pay such people more to, absolutely.