When You Can't Stop Thinking About Something, Here's What To Do. | Donna Jackson Nakazawa
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What is rumination and why is it significant?
So have you ever gotten stuck in a thought loop that just won't let go? Scientists call it rumination. We call it suffering. And most of us believe we can kind of think our way out of it. The science says otherwise. The relief never arrives because the area of your brain running those loops is a closed circuit locked away from the very regions that produce clarity and insight and relief. So how do you break its grip? In this episode, you'll discover what a brain scan of a ruminating mind actually looks like and what it predicts about your long-term mental health, why midlife is often when old ruminating stories return with the most force, and how to tap a groundbreaking four-step neurobiological practice to break the cycle of rumination.
Our guide is award-winning science author Donna Jackson Nakazawa, whose new book, Mind Drama, is a powerful window into the examination and relief of rumination. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll jump right in there after this short break. I want to start with the scene that opens your book, Mind Drama, because I think anyone listening is going to recognize themselves in it in some way, shape, or form.
How can brain scans reveal the effects of rumination?
You're sitting in a car in a parking lot, I think in an optometrist's office. You've just gotten a phone call. Take me there.
Yeah.
Well, like a lot of writers, I finish my book a long time before it comes out, right? Like eight or nine months, sometimes a year, and then it goes through the whole publication process. And early in that process, we have trusted readers. You know, I might show it to, I have two very close friends who are very well-known nonfiction female journalists, and we read each other's work. But in this case, a British researcher whose work I respected asked if he could read it. And what science writer doesn't want a very famous researcher to read their work and say, you know, good job, or maybe you got this one little thing wrong? As careful as my fact-checking is, it never hurts to have another read, especially at a very high level.
Right. So I had sent him my manuscript, which is kind of something we don't do, but I thought, all right, very, you know, what could go wrong? And I was sitting in my doctor's office and I got a call and he said that he was going to use several pages from the manuscript, sort of what we call my nut graphs, you know, real heart of my argument. in a paper that would come out in a couple of months, about six months before my book. And he knew I wouldn't mind because he was, you know, he knew that I wanted to get these ideas out there and that it was very, very important that they get out there sooner rather than later. And under his name, he could do a lot of good for this new argument that I was making.
And it was not this book. It was another book. And I... started shaking. My whole body started shaking. I literally became almost voiceless. And I said something to the effect of, you can't use my work without my permission. And he said, but I'm doing you a favor. I'm trying to help you. And I know you want this. And this cold sweat went all the way down my body in the way that it does sometimes when we're rendered voiceless. I left the doctors. I could not have my appointment. I drove home. My husband happened to be home.
Why does rumination often increase during midlife?
The dogs could tell that I was very upset.
The dogs always know.
The dogs were really barking and like, what is happening? And my husband was working from home that day. He came running down the steps. He said, my God, your whole body is red. You're shaking. What's happening? And I told him, and he just happens to be an attorney. And he said, call your editor. This is crazy. Call your editor. I did. My beautiful Penguin Random House team got involved within an hour. The attorneys got involved. They shut the whole thing down. But I couldn't shut it down in my head. It went on and on, replaying. It went from fear to self-loathing. Like... Why was I so stupid? How could I have done this? Why did I think he was such a nice guy to thinking about him and judging him harshly?
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is rumination and why is it significant?
0:00–1:18
2
How can brain scans reveal the effects of rumination?
1:18–3:42
3
Why does rumination often increase during midlife?
3:42–5:03
4
What gender differences exist in rumination patterns?
5:03–8:35
5
What is the MIST framework for managing rumination?
8:35–11:28
6
How does rumination relate to feelings of worthiness?
11:28–13:21
7
What are the neuroscience insights behind rumination?
13:21–16:44
8
How can we effectively break the cycle of rumination?
16:44–54:06
Speakers
2 identifiedMore from Good Life Project
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