Monica Lewinsky

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

I think what was interesting that I started to see in the public arena was that Very sadly, it was a lot of women who said worse things about me than the men. The men told a lot of jokes, right? So the late night hosts. I think when Jay Leno retired, some media... boop-de-boop, whatever, organization, had done a study and listed the top 10 targets, his top 10 targets of his late night show.

And I was on that list. And so, and I was the only person who wasn't a public figure in this, you know, these are... So it was... I think the men told the jokes, the women sort of eviscerated me. And look, also, let's recognize that while there were so many ways that I think Bill's behavior was more reprehensible than mine, I did make mistakes. So I think we see it very differently now.

And even through that lens, I still made mistakes. I still did things that were wrong.

Well, I mean, I think that it really was the younger generation. When I wrote my first person essay for Vanity Fair in 2014, it was your generation and the younger generations that really

insisted on reevaluating this story because you were all coming to it with just the facts, not having gone through the brainwashing or lived through that media lens and bringing different perspectives that happened throughout generations, right, from generations. And so it was really interesting to have this front row seat to observe everything

In the very beginning of the article coming out, it was sort of the same voices saying the same thing. Oh, you know, go away. You had your 15 minutes. And then it was the younger generation, the younger journalists, the younger women journalists who were starting to say, hold up.

All the things that you just said about the power differentials, both from age and within the resources, resources of both money and power and people who work for you who are able to disseminate information. I had to hire lawyers. I'd never done any of those things.

i was split because i felt so guilty um i felt so guilty for everything i i felt like this having become public was my fault that i had because i had confided in linda and so if i had not confided in her I felt as if this wouldn't have become public. And so there was an enormous amount of guilt. I didn't want him to lose his job. So there was a part of me that felt good. Deny it.

This is what you should do. You know, that sort of a thing. And then there was a part of me that um, was so humiliated and, um, to kind of have the most powerful man in the world saying that, um, you know, basically your damaged goods like is, uh, not something, not something you want as a 51 year old woman and not something you want as a 24 year old woman.

It was, well, it was gaslighting. So I think that was what I experienced on a pretty large scale. And it was... It was devastating. You know, it was devastating at the time. And I think what, you know, what we see now in today's world and as a grown woman, I hate to break it to any 24-year-olds listening to this because I know from 21 to 20, like 25, you think you know everything.

You're like, I'm a fucking adult now. I know everything. I'm so sorry to tell you. You will look back on this time and be like, oh... Little 20-year-old me. Little girl. Yeah, no. So I, you know, I thought it was something it wasn't. And my feelings were real. And it was very frustrating and painful to... To have people talking about this in a way that was untrue.

Oh, a hundred percent. I think that there were, um, you know, right. That's the whole, the whole goal of gaslighting. Right. So, I mean, I don't think the white house's intention was to gaslight me. I think the intention was to stay in power and to get out of legal jeopardy, but that, I think that is the core of being gaslit is you do start to doubt yourself.

There were many moments. It's interesting, in the moment, the rock bottom moment was probably, it was several months into the investigation and I guess whatever the layering of whatever had come out in the news that day, whatever it was, it was just too much. And I had remembered thinking, okay, I was able to, the first two weeks of the investigation, I didn't have a therapist.

I couldn't go on medication. And eventually I was able to get a therapist who had to be a forensic psychologist, who was amazing, Dr. Susan. I'm still grateful to her today. And yeah, I remember thinking like, okay, I'm gonna call her. And if she answers, then I'm staying. And if she doesn't, I'm out. So I think for me, that was rock bottom.

And that, again, just kind of the maelstrom of media and 24-hour news and the internet, the report coming out was the first time that you missed history being made if you didn't have access to the internet. Google had just launched. Web traffic doubled overnight. Like, it's just, those are the kinds of things that we just can't even fathom now, right?

I mean, and this was all pre-social media, but, you know, all the news outlets had, like, WWW representation and comment sections and things like that. So... That was a moment where I think – I don't know. Sorry, I'm babbling a bit. No, you're doing great.

I don't know if you ever had anything like this when you were growing up, but I had a couple of different moments in grade school where it was like – I did something embarrassing and that feeling of like, I don't want to go to school. The whole class knows. The whole grade knows. Everybody's going to this and that. And so that's one level of what we experience.

Or if I'm at a dinner party and I knock over, I don't drink anymore, but if I knocked over a glass of red wine on the white tablecloth, you know, you're mortified in front of this group and you're able to draw a mental perimeter around that. And

What I experienced and now why I care so much about anti-bullying with young people, because I understand what this is online and with social media, there is no border. And you literally, it literally feels like the entire world is laughing at you. And it is devastating.

I call them moments of grace. And so I think if you have that moment of grace and the... I don't know that beauty is the right word, but the beauty of having one moment of grace is that somewhere lodged in the back of your mind will always be that experience of having had that grace. You get through the moment and... things get better.

It doesn't always just continue better and better for the rest of your life. But once you've, you know, and that's, it's especially why I worry so much about young people because they haven't had enough life experience to like now at 51, when

something bad happens and feels devastating, I have a whole folder of times that I've had fucked up thing happen, I'm devastated, dah, dah, dah, whatever it is, and then it got better. And now I panic even less and less, which is amazing. I'm so grateful for that.

So yeah, don't let young people listening, don't let anybody tell you it is not great to get older because your 50s are fucking amazing. Yeah. You have a long time to get there, girl, but it's amazing to feel so comfortable with yourself. Right.

Boy, I think you – I think really – and maybe women of older generations weren't able to do this, but at least how I feel is – I know the operating manual to me. And that is one of the most empowering things I think anybody can have, but especially a woman.

Yeah, it took me a really long time. And like I was not until 2010, So this 1998 to 2010, there were – I would have moments of being angry. But I didn't realize how much I had lost until I came out of graduate school and I couldn't get a job. And that – and also I think at the point where I was because I was – in my early 30s. So now all of my friends have gotten married. Most of them have kids.

Some of them are even like going on to their second marriages, you know, second and third kids. And I'm still, I have nothing, you know, or that feeling of nothing. And, you know, it's, it very much was, that was the point when I realized how much had been taken from me.

what do you mean like people were literally turning you down in job interviews oh yeah I mean it was it was everything from I I wasn't even allowed to go interview certain places like I a place would say, no, we don't, you can't even come interview, even though I was qualified to, because it was 2007 when I was job hunting, I was, and then Hillary was running in 2008.

So there was this high likelihood that she would become president or, you know, or could get the nomination. So I think at that point she was expected to get the nomination, but of course Barack Obama did. So at this period of time when I am job hunting, people were saying, well, could you get a letter of indemnification? I can never say this. I had Bell's palsy a few years ago.

So sometimes some words are still a little hard for me. But ask me if I could get a letter of indemnification. Indemnification. If they hired me because they relied on grants and so they were worried that they would lose all their funding. So it was it was there were a couple of places that, you know, were interested to hire me, but would be like, well, you'd be interacting with the media.

So, I mean, it's just, you know.

I mean, I think that there were definitely a period of time that I contemplated it, except given the world we lived in. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

I'm good. I'm a little nervous. I still get nervous with these kinds of things, but in general, I'm good. I'm excited. It's a very busy... As you know, launching a podcast, it's a lot more than I ever could have imagined.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

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that those things became less important because I was been able to, even though I will always be defined in some way by my history, I am also defined by my present.

Well, it felt, it kind of felt for me like it was the next step for my own reclaiming and my own experiences of having lost my narrative, almost my life at 24 and what that journey or process has been like to come back that in many ways that's in the bones of the show. I think this idea of losing something and getting it back

Well, I had a whole – I call it my dark decade. I mean, it was a whole period of – floundering and having no purpose. I mean, I'm always lucky. My family's always been amazing. I've always had friends. Thank God. You stepped away for about 10 years. That was the time.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I have always dated, not always successfully dated. Yeah. And I was somebody who had wanted to get married and have kids. And I'm sort of past that point of having kids naturally. So that, I think that was a focus for a long time. But it was definitely my, you know, my dating life has been complicated, I think, at times, you know.

I've had a couple instances like that. I mean, it's sort of this wide spectrum of... I think my bullshit detector for someone who was there for the wrong reason has been pretty strong, luckily. But then there have been, there's a wide spectrum of like, how intimacy goes after something like this.

And it's, you know, it's like, I mean, thankfully, no one's ever asked me to wear a beret in the bedroom. But, you know, I mean, there have been, you know, it's complicated. Look, I think our comfort level, and it might be generational, but I think comfort level of intimacy

Really feeling like you can own your own sexuality fully can be one layer that many of us go through when you add on the way I was sexualized and humiliated around sex. Um, you know, it, it makes it more complicated, you know?

That's one part of me. I mean, it's funny because what was amazing to me, I was thinking about coming in and sitting down with you. And it was like, oh, you know, thanks to you. I think it was episode three. I'm like, you took the mantle of blowjob queen. I cannot thank you enough. What? You know, so it was, you know, what was it?

It's, you know, I think that those – I think that the first – The first handful of years, I was very self-conscious because of how I'd been sexualized and because, as we were talking before, of having the most powerful man, you know, to wag their finger and say, I didn't have sex with that woman.

And George Lakoff wrote this essay where he was talking about how, I wrote about this a little in one of my articles, but how we see because we haven't had a fucking woman president yet, but we see, we see the male president as a father figure, this idea of the father of the country saying, you know, and so I had concerns about that. And I think that they're,

Again, because of my own self-esteem issues already, I think that it impacted things. And I don't drink anymore. I mean, I have champagne on like rare – I'm not sober. I just don't drink. So – You know, but I think that helped for a while. And then, you know, I mean, I joke now, like if I were still drinking, I'd probably have a lot more sex.

But, you know, because the sort of the moment in the night, you know, the moment in the night was like, or I should say more casual sex, but that moment in the night where you're sort of.

I had had some sexual trauma from when I was younger that, you know, we didn't even have, again, didn't have language for the kinds of things that, you know, that happened. And so you don't even know that you're acting out. You know, you don't even know, you can't even piece those things together. So it's, it is, but I, you know, I've also been really lucky in,

So just to reel it back a few days, I found out about the investigation several days before the rest of the world did. There was a sting operation that happened at a shopping mall. And then I was up in... There was a Ritz-Carlton attached to the shopping mall. And I was in the hotel room really...

I haven't been super successful at a relationship. I haven't been successful at all at a relationship that goes the full distance. But I have been really lucky and dated some amazing men. And those men, each in their own way, helped me find a piece of myself again. Shame.

I guess my brain's going in a few places, but I guess the kind of good news and bad news is the good news is that... those moments will dissipate. Like that shame spear that stabs you, that wound will heal. The bad news is that we keep dealing with shame in different ways throughout life. And I think for me, the thing that is

think of shame almost being like a bacteria in a Petri dish, that it's like when you put it into this Petri dish and it's all by itself, it just grows, but it's still alone. And that's the thing to know the most is that almost everything anybody might feel shame about, somebody else is feeling the same thing.

Like it is not, it doesn't necessarily mean there's, you're not going to feel some shame, but for it to lessen a bit in some ways. And It is, I wish, I wish, wish, wish, you know, we get to a place in our world where women can just sort of like shirk the shame, you know, and just, you can't even be shamed. Because that's what we see with some men in the world who are shameless.

And that's, it's complicated. It is, it's something I still deal with.

I don't know how successful I have been in trying to navigate the double standards. I think in some ways my own reclaiming has been trying to open a path or continue a path that not a lot of women have been able to go through before, which is to be a fallen woman and to rise. letting many other women know it doesn't, I'm not the one to say this.

This is like a well-known quote of just, you know, it doesn't matter how many times you fall down. It matters how many you get up. And so I think that's the most important thing. So I'm sorry I don't have a better answer for for you on that.

realizing that what felt like my life was over, certainly my life was going to change and that I was threatened with jail. essentially told if I didn't cooperate and wear a wire that I would go to jail for 27 years. So... Oh, my God. And so I kind of saw this train starting to barrel down the tracks, and I really felt like the... 21st, January 21st, opening the door.

Because... But we're working, you know. Exactly. And I think the thing that is so... important about change.

And it's one of the things I, I admire about you and I'm so excited for you and grateful to you is that you are, you are pushing forward in a path in, in business and podcasts as a young woman, right up there, right up there with these men who are, you know, who are valuing what their contribution is in their podcast and they're being, um,

They're having that reflected to them and what they've sold them for. And you have done that, Alex. Like, I hope you take that in every day because of you. Other women are going to be able to have successful podcasts that they then move on to other places for for. You know what I mean.

Thank you so much for coming on Call Her Daddy. Thank you, Alex. This was so lovely.

I was living in the Watergate apartment complex with my mom. And so I remember opening the door. And these were in the days where people would get a newspaper delivered. And in DC, it was always several, like the Post and the New York Times. And so, and I remember seeing my name above the fold and the investigation and like,

looking down the hall and seeing the exact same newspaper outside everybody else's door. And it was shocking. It was terrifying. And I didn't actually know how to process anything. And really, it was a moment where life as I knew it was over.

Well, I, I think the moment in the hotel, so in the hotel room, they wouldn't let me call anybody at first. So, and I had a, a,

pager so my mom kept paging me and um eventually they i said i was like look if you don't let me call my mom she's going to really start to worry so they finally you know they all huddled there were a whole bunch of them and they were in this connecting room to the hotel and that my the room i was in

The connecting hotel room had a whole bunch of other FBI agents in it and lawyers from the independent counsel's office. And so they finally said, okay, you can call your mom. And these are in the days of a handheld phone. So I'm holding the phone and the agent had his finger over the hang up button.

And so it was this, you know, you just begin to understand subtly, maybe not so subtle, but the kind of nonverbal ways that you're starting to understand how much trouble you're in. When I had to go to the bathroom, they went in because there was a phone in the bathroom, they took the receiver out of the wall. So it was, but eventually I was allowed to go

asked for my mom because they wouldn't, there was a point where they all came in the room. This had been a few hours and I had kind of refused to cooperate still at that point. And they had really, they sort of sent in the heavy. And at that point, it was the kind of the pressure tactics. And so I basically said, I can't make a decision unless I talk to my mom.

So they let me, finally let me call my mom and Um, and then she came down from New York and, um, and was, so I was waiting for her to come down. And then she called my dad who was at a medical conference and with his best friend who was a, who was a malpractice attorney, which is how I ended up with a malpractice attorney as my first attorney.

I couldn't call a lawyer. I had asked to call a lawyer from moment one because I think we all – You know, we all know from TV and the movies, right? Like when it happens in TV and the movies, usually a man comes and flashes their badge. You're like, I'm not talking to you without my lawyer.

And they said, well, that's fine, but you won't be able to get as much information and help yourself as much. And so and then I was actively discouraged from getting a lawyer. And I... I mean, I remember very distinctly the moment of it sinking in about what it would mean for this to come out and impact my family. You know, so I had a younger brother in college.

My dad's an upstanding doctor in the community. You know, my mom has her own world, too, and my stepmom and everything. And so that and the kind of shame and knowing that I had felt very responsible in that point, too, because I knew I had talked about things that... it was expected I would not have talked about them, so.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was, I was, well, first I was obsessed with the case. I think, too, just to paint a little bit of a landscape of what the media life was like. Because we have a sense of how things are today with how we can get inundated with a story online with social media. Now there are eight bajillion outlets. But...

What it meant back then was this story was actually, instead of a story having legs for a week, which is considered a long time in today's world, I mean, it was a year. It was a year of coverage. In the first 10 days of the investigation, the Washington Post alone had published 127 articles. So that's like 12 articles a day. on just this story. So it was and that was one news outlet.

And this was global.

Oh, I think for five seconds. it was sympathetic and maybe after about a week, once the white house got in gear, um, I was, I, I was very quickly painted as a, um, a stalker, um, a whore, uh, mentally unstable, a bimbo, um, both the pursuer in this and also not attractive enough to be pursued.

And really there was a creation of a version of me that I didn't recognize and my friends and family didn't recognize. And that's what happens when you have a power imbalance in a story where media is so integral to it unfolding.

Well, I think – I can't say this for – you know, for everybody who gets involved in a relationship with someone who's, I'm trying to think of the right way to say it, but it's like, I think not everybody who has an affair feels this way, but I think a lot of especially young women who get involved in affairs, it already starts with a lack of self-esteem and self-worth. So I already had issues.

It was this... It's kind of your worst nightmare. All the worst things that you think about yourself and say to yourself, you then start to have reflected and amplified by the whole world. And so... It was if it hadn't been for my family continuing to remind me of my true self. And then eventually when I was able to have my friends come in, I don't think I would have been able to make it through.

I think there were really sort of two parts of me. There was both this more damaged younger part of me who was soaking up all the negativity and And it was like a tsunami and just making a bad situation worse. And then there was a, you know, maybe a future version of me or a... like a higher self or whatever, who was angry, who started to get angry.

So it was, there were times that I was angry or frustrated. I was so humiliated.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

Mit wem? CBS? CBS?

Have you thought about that? Oh my gosh. I think that... I think that he should have said... I'm like now thinking this through. I don't think I've answered this question before. But good question. I haven't been asked that before.

I think that the right way to handle... A situation like that would have been to probably say it was, you know, nobody's business and to resign, you know, or to find a way to find a way of staying in office that was not lying and not. throwing a young person who is just starting out in the world under the bus. And at the same time, I'm hearing myself say that.

And it's like, okay, but we're also talking about the most powerful office in the world.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. For today's episode, I spoke with my dear friend, Alan Cumming.

Yeah, so really the Me Too that we saw in 2017 was Me Too 2.0, right? And so, because Tarana had started the movement 10 years earlier, and it was so fascinating to me, with my social psychology background, to observe how when I put Me Too, everybody assumed I was talking about 98, and I actually was talking about this other experience.

several others that I had had that were sort of what I was mentioning before in terms of this something that I had always talked about, like having lost my virginity at 19. Yes. And I was in therapy. I had been with this therapist for five years at this point. And I was like, well, technically I was 14, but that didn't count. Right.

You know, and that whole, and so the, and her sort of talking me through, no, that's an unwanted sexual, you know, no, no, but I liked him and the whole thing. And I was fucking 14. Right.

So, and yeah.

And there was no, consent wasn't a thing and the whole, whatever. But what we also see, right, is like Vessel Bandelkork, I never say his name right, but the body keeps the score. And so the reality is like you were saying, about when you were 28, that you had suppressed all these memories. And so they were living in you.

And so it just is, so sometimes it can take a long time to see the damage. Like they'll say about a car accident, you know, if you've like hurt your neck in a car accident, that may not, you know, show up for 10 years, like the actual damage. And so I think that's what sort of,

Lying there, nervous.

Always the German. German or Japanese. It's always, right, the best words.

Yeah, exactly. Popping my podcast post cherry.

That's so interesting. I have to think about that because my initial reaction is I don't agree with that. And what do you mean? Well, I think in the sense that if there had not been any element of trauma in that experience... We wouldn't be making the connection. We wouldn't be drawing the line from a later thing looking back at something.

I think we just may not experience it in the linear way that we look at trauma or think of trauma.

Exactly. And I was thinking, I was nervous, and I was thinking about two things. One was, I did the math. We've actually now known each other for 25 years. Because we met in 99. I checked on the calculator. Was it 99? I thought it was 1,000.

Right.

Oh, I don't know this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor. This year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals.

You'll find titles that enrich your life, relax you, and the ones I like best, titles that make you laugh. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best goal you can make for yourself, and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen.

Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash reclaiming. Thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses.

But if you're like me, you may have thought that's all they do. Well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year, they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better, I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes, and bags.

It's already 1,000. No, I'm pretty sure it was 99 because I did that.

But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus, it really holds up since they make everything with super high-quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world, and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two.

If you're looking for clothes you want to feel great in and feel better about, head to Reformation.com. I know in the 28 period, right, when you were 28, then you started to confront the stuff with your dad, your dad's abuse.

And you, can you tell me that story?

Wait, is that the one when we were both? Oh, right. And I was in green also. We look like.

We look like leprechaun twins. Maybe that was 99. I can't say leprechaun anymore.

Never is.

So I was saying. Quarter of a century. I know. Exactly. So our 25 year friendiversary. And then I was also thinking about that in the 25 years I've known you, I've never been nervous to talk to you.

The amazing Tom.

And... Were you worried when Tom started to have kids? Were you, like, did he have the same concerns about fatherhood that you had?

Oh, wait, sorry. So I'm not sure I understood this before. Was Tom cognizant of the abuse or had you both pushed it away?

Exactly.

I'm a little less nervous, but I'm nervous. You know, I'm a little bit of a perfectionist.

Really?

Yeah. Do you still get nervous?

Yeah. I think that's one of the hard things, particularly about trauma and abuse when you're young, is that it's sort of... You become, it's like you are able to gaslight yourself, you know, and you become very proficient at it. You become very proficient at it. It's my fault.

Really? Okay, with everything?

Or it didn't happen.

Right. Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, that's sort of true. That is true.

Yeah.

So as you were going through this, were you talking to your dad at this point?

Yeah. I remember a dinner we had in L.A. a long time ago. And you really opened my eyes to something I didn't. you know, I guess naively hadn't thought about before that before people come out, they are being forced to live a lie.

I found this thing from 2001, okay?

And I just, I hadn't thought about the weight of living with lies like that. And so like, I always, I understood, okay, yes, of course it's painful. You're, you, you know, you're, hiding in some ways, but somehow the idea that it was a lie and the heaviness of that was really.

Sometimes. Sometimes you just...

I printed it out. This is part of an email you sent me.

I mean, it was a nightmare, but... It was so tangled. Yes, it was too... And so many... And I was so young. Tendrils. But I think... Yeah.

If you feel comfortable reading it on the thingy, you can, but you could read it first.

Well, I think for me, it was... You know, I think that a lot of the work I had to do when I came out of graduate school, and I thought I had gone to graduate school thinking, okay, now I'm going to start my real life as Monica Lewinsky, whoever I was supposed to be, and came out and couldn't get a job. I think that...

So much of the work I had to do in that, you know, what I call the dark decade, which you were there for. Yes. And.

I still have them.

I know, right? Like a secret inventor. Einstein and me.

Oh yeah, cause cola. Cause cola.

Yeah, purse poncho.

There was, oh, this one was, I think kind of came from you or maybe you did, was Star Ruffs. Or Starbucks. It was supposed to be the dog biscuits at Starbucks for the dogs.

Oh, that is brilliant. Thank you. Okay, that's fucking brilliant. It's good, isn't it? Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. Mac, you should listen to this.

It's not too late. We could both be moguls.

I tried. I was a little engine that could. I kept trying. You certainly did. I kept trying. You certainly did. But sort of going... Looping back when you had your, I think you called it your nervous B. Nervy B. Nervy B. Nervy B. I've used that, except I've said nervous B, so sorry. Fine. So you weren't talking to your dad. No.

But then part of coming, wasn't part of kind of coming out of that spiral was then... Totally, confronting my father, yes.

Like, what do you mean?

We met 25 years ago at a party where we were sitting in a booth and the people in the booth next to us, someone leaned over and started to touch my hair. And I said to Alan, sort of quite frightened that someone was petting me. And we had a moment and kind of both knew that we were going to be good friends ever since then.

I know. Me, I'm like, well, maybe. But, you know.

Monica, I'm going to need a little hug. I know.

I love you. And this was like...

I have a weird question. When you were talking about that, like you were giving it back to him, you were no longer going to carry this burden. I feel like sometimes when I've... been in situations like that, I believe it 80%. And there's still 20% that's whatever. But when you're telling the story, it sounds like you had 100% conviction.

I know, but part of why I wanted to do this with you, like for my first, you were always the first one to do, like there was no question for me about. And it's just, I think you have both witnessed a lot with me in our friendship and you have inspired me so much. And I've learned so much from you.

And so was there any part of you that wasn't sure you were ready to let it go or wasn't sure what would happen? Wasn't sure you would be okay with whatever happened?

So something you were saying, it was interesting, reminded me of this thing my therapist talks about a lot that I'm always repeating of her thing that trauma doesn't go away. It's an echo.

And the echo, the longer it goes, the sort of more it dissipates.

You know, but...

Right, which is what you were saying that you've, it's such an, I've had these kinds of experiences too. And it's so fascinating where something sort of flits in, right? Yeah. And then, and you're kind of like, oh, we've been here before. And then it almost like origami or something or those old, it's like another layer just opens and you're kind of going, what's this?

Yeah, I remember for me, it would often be I would just I feel like I would just pray to not wake up. Oh, you know, so but it's but you're talking about suicide. I don't know if you remember. I'm fairly certain I told you in Grant.

That probably over 10 years ago, I had this insane, intense dream where I had gotten on a roller coaster in Las Vegas that was – it was like six people standing next to each other. And you would get on at this very high thing. Yeah. Six people get on and it drops. And the whole point was, it was a suicide ride. The whole point was like, you do not get off the ride.

And halfway down, I changed my mind. And you and Grant flew up.

And you got me out. And then you flew.

Yeah. And I just, you know, and that's sort of, What was interesting to me about that dream and so kind of reinforced in this conversation for me too is just around, we don't always talk about the details of the pain between us. Like I feel like when we see each other, oh, this happened and this happened. Oh, this was hard and this was hard.

But there's sort of that, there's that deep, there's that sort of silent language of trauma. And so sometimes I think when you're Because I have the friends, right, that were always, you know, all the details and all the this and all the that all the time. And that dream just really showed me how much you guys mean to me. And likewise, Monica, you know that.

Okay, you have to tell me what your therapist says that meant.

This has been amazing. I'm so grateful to you for doing this.

I know.

I know.

And there aren't other people interrupting the conversation.

Two big egos.

Yeah.

No, no.

I know.

Yeah, exactly.

And Mary Darling.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you sent me photos. I'm very jealous.

Yeah.

I love it so much.

Yeah, I think that's better.

I don't have a bagel named after me.

Yeah, I do not even want to encourage that, actually. I know. Cut. That's an erased part of the... No, really, thank you so much for this.

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky. Production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffen.

Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez-Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louis.

Yeah. No, I don't. That's what worries me. I don't either. But I feel like we've mentioned Grant. Grant's my top international husband. Exactly. I think the two best things that come with you, right, are Grant and Mary Darlene. Mary Darlene.

Aww. I love to tell everybody the story from your wedding, how she made the cake in Scotland and brought it down on the train.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, good. I remember you said something at some point about that when you were growing up, it was like a, did you call it a Scottish Downton Abbey?

So you probably know him as an actor, presenter, author, and host of the hit show Traitors. I've known Alan for so long and so intimately. I wasn't surprised in our conversation when he talked about how abusive his dad had been. But I was really surprised to learn that he had also been groomed by an older man when he was a teenager. So it was a little heartbreaking for me.

Oh, really?

And your childhood there, like you were talking before about your hair and getting your hair cut and the whole thing. And I was thinking about how it's funny that in the 25 years, I think every time I see you, your hair is different. And I was like, for me, if it's been six months, I'm like, am I up 20 pounds or am I down 20 pounds? What's Alan's hair? What's Monica's weight?

But there's like a great...

Yeah, that's controlling.

You like me. Yeah, I'll be fine.

Did you do, I mean, because you were young, so did you do... work on that, personal work on that before you sort of took the power of, you know, your hair back in the way that it became, your hair became sort of a rebellion.

But I hope you find something to connect to in our chat. And thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our sponsor, Reformation. Visit Reformation.com to see why they're my go-to for stylish and sustainable fashion. I was thinking this morning, I was awake at 5 a.m.

Yeah, because he was physically abusive. Physically very abusive. Yeah, really abusive.

Like Violet Beauregard.

Yeah. I think I feel very mindful in my life just because my family got so exposed early on and it was so negative and there was, I think there was so much embarrassment and exposure for them too, that I feel ultra protective.

So what's interesting to me about what you're saying with the 20, like in this 28 year old period, going to become a father, and you were married to a woman at the time, not Grant. Yeah, nope. But it's interesting to me because I had similar experience in terms of marriage. just becoming more aware of traumatic experiences that I hadn't thought of as traumatic.

And for me, there was, I had to have done a certain level of healing. So I think it was kind of after I came sort of back out into the public arena, started attempting to take back my narrative. And I think there was a point where I felt on some version, my body, my psyche felt safe enough And that it was, you know, I was in therapy and saying this, you know, thing.

It was like, oh, yeah, but that happened. That didn't count.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. For today's episode, I spoke with my brave and brilliant friend, Olivia Munn. We met over a decade ago and bonded over all things woo-woo.

Yeah. Wait, are you also Libra rising? No.

Okay, me too. And then Cancer. You're Leo. Right. But I'm right on the cusp of Cancer and Leo. Yeah. So in Libra justice. Yeah, exactly.

I know, at the Vanity Fair Oscar party. And then you came over not that long after and you brought me these lovely, it was like Jungian psychology books by... Robert Johnson, I think.

But nuance isn't something... I don't know that a lot of young people have nuance, but for you, you felt like it was more demarcated than... Here's a really great example of how it affected me in my adult life.

Exactly. And we. Yes, he, she, we. He, she, we. And I loved that.

Yeah, the online, right? Because Tarana... Burke started, right, 10 years prior. Oh, yes, yes. So the online version.

Was that experience what led you into kind of diving deeper into your healing work or was that a result that you felt you could sort of stand behind your voice in that way was a result of having done the personal work.

So many women, I think, find themselves in different levels of relationships that are everything from psychologically and emotionally abusive to physically abusive, and I think find it hard to leave. I think people talk more now about you know, attachment styles and stuff. And so I look back on some of my relationships during what I call my dark decade.

So kind of in between 98 graduate school, whatever, and my first person essay in Vanity Fair in 2014. And I think I look at it, and maybe it's a story I tell myself, but I I think about that the pain I was in staying in relationships with people who didn't value me, who talked to me a certain way that I allowed and accepted and kept going back for more. And I look at it and I think I was...

I was in a deeper pain and experiencing the pain in the relationship was actually easier. I knew I had to go through pain and that was easier than the pain of really what I was sitting on of both, not only my experiences in 98, whatever, all those experiences before it that, that, that led to all of that. And so did you feel, do you feel like, does that resonate at all or something different?

Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor. This year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your wellbeing with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals.

You'll find titles that enrich your life, relax you, and the ones I like best, titles that make you laugh. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best goal you can make for yourself, and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen.

Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash reclaiming. Thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses.

But if you're like me, you may have thought, that's all they do. Well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year, they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better, I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes, and bags.

But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus, it really holds up since they make everything with super high-quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world, and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two.

If you're looking for clothes you want to feel great in and feel better about, head to Reformation.com. I think what's interesting to me is to just think about how you have this strong sense of self. You lost yourself in this relationship.

what's so interesting to me is because I think this is in a short period of time, you were able to, it may have been, it may have felt like forever to you and may have seemed near impossible, but you actually stepped into a healing mode and found yourself again in what I think is like a very powerful and quick way of healing.

You know, in a really – and that's one of the things that I admire about you is that you are – that you have a focus. And I think that's part of – I think that's the good side of the black and white, the good side of the kind of the fierceness, the going in and it's a decisiveness. Yeah. Yeah.

I think we've talked about this before of just you don't always know what's going on behind the curtain, especially for public people where we think we think we know everything, you know, and I as your friend, you know, I watched you. I remember when when you told me about that you had cancer. I remember when you told me I was in the parking garage, I was in my car. So I remember that.

But I don't remember how you found out. Yeah.

People who don't know LA watch the Californians. Oh my God.

Do you think, was there any part of you that also felt that in not telling people it sort of, um, that it almost, it could then just turn out to be a nightmare? that it sort of makes it more real when you concretize it, telling other people, or did you? No, I didn't feel that because it's very real when it happens. Yeah. My dad's a, he just retired from being a radiation oncologist. Yeah, I know.

When you told me, you were like, if you need anything, you were so sweet. You kept offering that. He's an amazing doctor. He just retired at 81, but he's- Well, it's interesting because I grew up really – I mean, I was sort of – I'm like, I was a naughty kid.

But, I mean, I used to sort of snoop around my dad's office and find all these slides of tumors and things, which is not a good thing to do when you're a kid. You don't really understand. Whatever. That's for another therapy session. But what I was going to say is that I wonder if because they started to find –

people find cancer so much earlier today if you think that's at all why they thought, oh no, it's so rare. Well, I think they're finding it earlier because for some reason people are getting cancer younger and younger, right? Right. So you decided to do the double mastectomy. I mean, what was that like kind of going in? I mean, watching them, did they mark up your breast?

And did you, I mean, I don't know if this is too personal, but like, did you do any, did you take like- photos or any sort of a ritual or something before of like saying goodbye to what was there.

I want to hear this story. I did a lot of research. I did all the research, but I didn't get it.

Like saying your scar, you – I want to hear this story because you did this extraordinary. I mean, aside from just as a woman, but also as your friend, just being grateful to you and so proud of you and how you have stepped forward in talking about this. And I think bringing such awareness, one of our producers was saying that she took the test because of you. That makes me so happy. Yeah.

So crystals, astrology, we just got into deep, real conversation really quickly, which is kind of the way I like to do it. You probably know her as an actor and an activist. And if you're on social media, you'd also know her as the mom to adorable Malcolm and May. Because Olivia and I are close, I knew about her struggle with breast cancer in real time.

And so I think you've brought so much awareness around the issue and the bravery of talking about your mastectomy too. But then this whole other thing happened. It was like another layer of really kind of... To say owning your story feels cheap in this instance, and I can't think of the right phraseology, but you were doing a Skims ad, right?

Right. And so you went in with a plan of one thing and came out with a plan of another, right? Well, that...

For the maybe one person listening who didn't see it, the campaign was you proudly letting your scar show.

still do it i mean you you can i love it but it's very i know it's hard because i remember when you told me that idea and i loved it from that moment you were one of the first people to to just say yes to be involved in this anti-bullying campaign which you wanted me for right It was the other one we were nominated.

And also sort of, I know for me or my experiences, like somehow being able to use my pain to help ease other people's suffering has probably been the most humbling and gratifying experience in my life, you know, in that way.

That was like a skill I had to develop to becoming a public person of that. What was that skill? It's so annoying. What is that skill? Well, I don't know that it's a beneficial skill, but it's thinking 10 steps ahead about what you are about to say. And so I find that. Exhausting.

And I also I think also, too, there was I had another layer of it around, I guess, like really sort of unintended puns or, you know, language that I was concerned about when I gave my TED talk. I remember being worried about I don't know why this is making me emotional. Look at what you're doing to me. Bring all my emotion to the surface. This is what we need.

But that campaign was around really actually reclaiming theme, but around taking back the power from the names that you'd been called as a kid. And so I remember you were... Actually, Kelly Ripa did your intro, and it was something about being a new girl, being bullied for being a new girl in school.

Everybody... I mean... But I remember the... You know, they give you those mics that, like, go on your thing. And I was... I remember being really embarrassed and having to kind of quietly ask the line producer there, like... Is there a shadow? And I was really worried that it would look phallic on my face. Like a phallic shadow on my face. And so something like that.

You know, those are the filters. It's the same kind of thinking ahead about something. Exactly what you're saying about how people take, you know, something out of...

Gallows humor. It's like, if you can't laugh, you laugh or cry. So I want to ask you something of... It's kind of... It's like a bigger question and there's another piece of it inside it too. I'm ready. Okay. Which is, so I'm really curious about this piece between, well, I guess I'm making an assumption that when you go through something like cancer, you feel like your body's betraying you.

And I also am curious about that around if If there were any of your experiences that were impacted by the fact that you also have been seen as this like, you know, sex symbol and a hottie and was part of then that sort of other piece of it of like part of your... Like identity. Reclaiming your body really in ways and your identity with the photo shoot and with the ad. Yeah.

Just sort of did that bring you back to yourself in a different way or are those completely separate things? From the beginning, I just...

Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like, because we've talked about this before, like both of us having a love for Sloane Sabbath, do you feel like that role actually in a way sort of married? Because when I talk about you behind your back, I will say like, you're more like Sloane Sabbath, I think, because you're brilliant. You're really brilliant, really smart.

But do you think that role... Because that was sort of where I first saw you as an actor. In fact, it was my mom who told me about the newsroom. She was like, you have to see this Olivia Munn girl. She's beautiful and incredible and all those things. That was Aaron Sorkin's writing.

But I see so much of you. No, no.

Oh, interesting.

I've always been more of a Mackenzie, but wanting to be more Sloane Savitt. But, you know.

Do you think Erin found, like saw something in you that you didn't see in yourself yet that sort of ended up in the character that it was?

Or not?

So did, okay, did that, did you bring that to bear in the role? Yes, yes.

You have a new show coming out, Your Friends and Neighbors, on Apple TV.

Yeah. I think we had dinner actually. I was struggling. Yeah. And you were trying to. Like I was just comatose. Make a decision. Yeah. About the medicine. About that. Yeah.

Yeah. And had you gone public about your cancer before you were shooting this show or was... Right before. Okay. Right before. Okay.

I'm so proud of you. Thank you so much. I feel like we're sitting on your sofa. I'm like imagining us sitting on the sofa. Ordering Thai food.

I know because, you know, what choice? No, it's what it is, is that there I don't have like a studio studio. It's sort of move around. Yeah. So this was did they move these chairs? Uh huh.

So, yeah, guys, I know. I need to break your back on her crystals. I probably have one in my purse. Well, actually, I have one for you because I'll give it to you after I give all my guests a crystal just as an exchange of energy. That's so sweet. OK, well, I'm going to ask you our final question that we ask everybody. So why?

I'd like to know, is there anything that you're working on reclaiming right now? And that could be something personal or a physical object, anything that you feel in your life. That's a great question.

So just a small PS for this episode. After chatting with Olivia, I went and did the breast cancer risk assessment tool myself. I think that's what it's called. If not, just Google Olivia Munn and breast cancer test and it will come up. And thankfully, my numbers were low, but it was a really great reminder to do something like that. So maybe you also want to do.

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky. Production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffen.

Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez-Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louis.

But to hear her heartbreaking and inspiring story in the details that she shared in our conversation, it meant so much to me and made me admire her even more. And for any fans of the newsroom, we went there too. So anyway, I hope you find something to connect to in our chat. And thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible.

I knew you were a badass. I didn't know you were that badass, Olivia.

Yeah. Yeah. all your stands, right? We'll go after that person too. Yes, yes, you're right. And so that's the thing where I think it's interesting to see something, a technology like that, bring, change a whole aspect of kind of our culture, our celebrity culture that way.

Look where it's gotten us now. I know.

Right.

Visit audible.com slash reclaiming to find your next listen. Thank you to our sponsor, Reformation. Visit reformation.com to see why they're my go-to for stylish and sustainable fashion. Thank you for being here. I'm so happy to be here. I was so excited when you called. Aw, thanks. I was thinking about, you know, in having this chat, thinking about how we met. Oh my gosh, so long ago.

What is so interesting to me is because I know you as all these wonderful things of kind and smart and funny and brave and you're an advocate. And so I wasn't surprised at all when you were awarded this Impact Award last year. But what's interesting is to sort of think about... John gave this great speech, and I have a quote from it. I think it went viral on there.

But he said that, Olivia is constantly trying to keep me out of danger and keep me alive through a series of texts.

But there were some good ones that he was like, baby, be so careful today. You could get monkey pox.

Yes.

And I wanted him to know. But it's interesting because then there was the other one of you said, please be so careful today. So many crazy things could come out of nowhere. And Sean's like, like what? And you say crazy cars.

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. And I've not spent too much time, but I've spent time with both of you. And I love you guys as a couple. Aw, thanks so much. And I always leave spending time with you with like a new book or having heard something interesting that one of you has said. Same. Always feel better leaving our conversations. But it's interesting because...

I have been thinking about that, your impact award and how funny that speech was. And so it's just interesting to hear like how you were in this, in your youth of kind of this like Karate Olivia badass going to stand up to the bullies and then contrast that with the anxiety, right? That comes in and the nervousness there.

And were you anxious at the same time when you were younger or is this something that came...

I mean, well, I mean, you're younger than I am, but I, I don't, so I don't know for you, but I know for me growing up, we didn't, the anxiety was not a word that was used. It was like, oh, my stomach hurts. No, you know, no.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi guys, it's Monica. In today's episode, I spoke with my soulful friend, Molly Ringwald.

You know, you've just sort of, you've known performance. I mean, we all know performance as kids, right? That's how we get attention from our parents, right?

Thank you. So happy to be here. Aw, thanks, Molly. It's funny because I was thinking about how on the way over that we were doing this in New York and how if we were in L.A., I would have worn my Molly shoes. Because I don't think you know that every time I see you, I like copy some outfit thing that you have some aspect.

Please love me, mommy. You don't have to be an actor to feel that way.

You do. Thank you. I mean, like your entire career, always every performance, every performance. So on stage, too. I've seen you on stage many times.

Oh, my God. For anybody listening who hasn't heard Molly sing, she has an extraordinary voice. When you were saying before about having felt a little afraid and kind of maybe closing yourself off a bit, did you feel in some ways that were you trying to hold on to who you thought you were? Did you feel defined by how you were known in the press? Was there a separation there for you?

And I bought these red heeled espadrilles a few years ago because I remembered you wearing heeled espadrilles with jeans and a cute top somewhere. And I was like, that's so cute. It looks so cute. And I've only worn the shoes once.

Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor. This year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals.

You'll find titles that enrich your life, relax you, and the ones I like best, titles that make you laugh. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best goal you can make for yourself and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen.

Were they not comfortable? No. No, they are. You know those items that you put them on and you're like, yeah, not today. Yeah.

Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash reclaiming. Thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses.

But if you're like me, you may have thought that's all they do. Well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year, they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better, I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes, and bags.

But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus, it really holds up since they make everything with super high-quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world, and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two.

If you're looking for clothes you want to feel great in and feel better about, head to Reformation.com. You told this incredible story when—and it was interesting because I listened to it at the time and then listened to it again. You did this interview with Ira Glass for This American Life, and you were talking about this with your mom. I don't know if you feel like talking about it here.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Especially that I find that happens a lot with vintage pieces. And I know you have a lot of vintage stuff. So, you know, I didn't know it at the time, but it turns out that when I was five, I saw you in Annie. No way. It was... like seared in my mind because it was actually the first time I went to a proper theater to see a musical or play. Who took you? My mom, my mom.

Oh, my gosh. Really? Do you think that's... Do you think that's true or do you think your sister heard your mom saying it and maybe she wanted it to be true? I mean, what do you think that was? Gosh, that would be, you know. I don't know.

Very, very funny. Memory and truth, right? They're two so subjective. Yeah. What did it feel like for you to sort of just always be told you're special? Did you ever have an experience then that you were confronted where you felt, oh, maybe that's not true, like in some way? Yeah. Yeah.

This was when you went to Paris. So in this phase, yeah.

Yeah, it is.

I haven't gone through that yet. Yeah.

And so my dad took me to see the movie version, which were you also in the movie? I was not. Okay. So I had already aged out by then.

Yeah. I mean, grief in general, Anderson Cooper has a great podcast on this. But I think that there's such a big, wide spectrum of grief. And it feels like that's close to the top of the list of those things that you wish they taught us when we were younger. I saw this thing on Insta the other day about parallelograms. And it was like,

Yeah, I would have rather have learned about grief, how to move through grief than a fucking parallelogram. So, you know, that never, never became a thing for the rest of my life. So I hadn't experienced a few. I think it was actually in 2016. And I had gone back on medication at that point.

and I'd gone, and my therapist is a trauma psychiatrist, and I'd gone in, and I was like, oh, I think I'm depressed, and maybe we need to up my meds, and blah, blah, blah, and talking, and she was like, no, this is just grief. And so I think we don't even learn how to identify that in that way, and I find I've gotten a little better with it. I know a lot of grief that I have experienced

Aged out of like being a young person. And so it was, you know, it was interesting because that was seared in my mind. And then a few years later, I remembered, you know, seeing you on Facts of Life. And then when Sixteen Candles came out, it was, oh, it's the girl from Facts of Life, which, and I know you weren't always on.

still carry and move through are sort of around just, not just the things that happened, but also what I lost in connection to that, right? The kinds of things that I didn't experience or go through. And I imagine even though there was a lot more positive things for you, that there were aspects of young adulthood or adolescence that you just didn't get to experience.

And did that feel like a loss for you or just something you didn't know it, so it... I think it was...

Interesting. I'm like now back thinking about college and how – because I went to graduate school late. That's right. So I was in my early 30s and much older than a lot of the other kids. And I so appreciated being spoon-fed knowledge. Yeah.

To have somebody hand you an outline for a lecture and to be given this and to just have your mind blown and constantly, you know, thinking of new things and putting things together. It is – it's such a gift that we don't appreciate at 18. At all.

Well, a gap year like they do in Europe, you know, so it's or several gap years. Yeah.

Yeah.

But you had such a presence and you had it from such a young age and sort of I felt like you brought this sense of depth. Like you just exemplified someone who is a layered person and had a lot of depth. And so I made that connection. And then, of course, watched all the John Hughes films six bajillion times. So in many ways, yeah. I felt kind of like I grew up with you.

I think I felt more self-conscious about being Monica Lewinsky than being an older student. Yeah, it was a little harder. And I think it was.

I think in terms of being older, that went away. So I think once I made friends, and I've always been a big believer of like, you just need one friend, one person to have lunch with, one person to go to the movies with. And I made several friends that I'm still close to today. But graduate school was really interesting for me because it sort of became the mirror of my trauma.

So it was like all of the things that I hadn't totally understood had damaged me came to the surface. So I hadn't realized the impact of having been called stupid for such a long time. So I couldn't get up and give a presentation in class.

Like I was – and my imposter syndrome around I was afraid to go – like when we had to write essays and do dissertation, which I'd never done a dissertation or thesis, whatever it was. I was too – I was too worried about going to ask for help because I was anxious that what I needed help with, everybody else knew. And then they would like go, oh, you don't really belong here. Yeah.

You know, so there was that. Yeah. But you got through it. I did. I did. And you got skills that you use today, don't you? Well, yeah. I think, you know, I think I read Rashida Jones said this once somewhere and it was so perfect that I've stolen it, that a master's degree gives you a new lens. And so that is completely, you know, it really reoriented me.

And how I looked at myself, my own story, but also what happened to me in the world because I was studying social psychology. But I – yeah. Go back to school. Well, I'm – You know, you can take one – I don't know how many classes you have to take a thing to be matriculated, but –

And I don't know, maybe your time in Paris was like this. But for me, it was like fumbling. I was just fumbling trying to move forward and didn't really know where. how to do that, which way to go, where to go. And so, okay, well, this isn't working. So what's the opposite of this? Okay, I'll try that. And that doesn't work. And you're, you know, kind of so.

Were you writing all along and it was just sort of one of those things where you eventually felt ready to let people read your writing? Or did you sort of start to discover that you were a writer?

Yeah.

That's so interesting. I've never thought about the connection of, you know, I mean, obviously actors inhabit other people and personas, but but I haven't ever really thought about it or heard maybe of that. interest coming from sort of trying to understand the human condition better.

You know, it's really interesting.

We met back in 1999 through a mutual friend who just happened to be the inspiration for one of the most iconic characters of the 80s, Ducky from Pretty in Pink. You may know her from her other work too, The Breakfast Club, Sixteen Candles, or more recently, Ryan Murphy's feud, Capote versus the Swans.

One thing I wanted to go back to, because you were mentioning it before, and this is in connection to John and the sort of early years, you wrote this extraordinary piece in The New Yorker. um, in 2018 about exactly like what you were saying before about recontextualizing, I think for, um, for today's world, like what these films meant.

And so just, I don't know, can you like sum up the article or just, you know, what did you know?

When that happened being showing your kids or Me Too?

100%.

You know, I think I think I mean, that's in some ways. Right. That's the the gift of emotional truth. Right. So like, yes, it's important to see yourself in different ways. Right. So whether it's your skin color or your body type or your nationality or, you know, all those things. Right. But I think that.

probably there was so much emotional truth in those films that, like, you can't help but find yourself in there somewhere, you know?

Thank you. Yeah, no, it's... But it's interesting because we then met in 1999 through... I guess it was like... Well, through Matt, which it turns out Ducky was sort of based. Is that true? It is true. Oh, my gosh. OK.

Yeah. But wait, do you feel like you couldn't tell that story now?

Uh-huh.

I'm EPing, we're in the process of shooting, so I'm EPing the Amanda Knox limited dramatic series for Hulu, so... Very exciting. Yeah. It's another story of a young woman who becomes public property, right?

So, and I think that, you know, we've seen over the years, especially as we look back now, you know, even when it's positive attention, like what you had, there is a price to pay to be owned by the world when you're very young. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's that's in a good wave or a bad wave, like because I'd be afraid to be swept up in a wave.

Yeah. Did you did you talk about like did you have a Harvey experience?

Yeah. I think this complicated thing happens in society where—and with change, where a big cultural change happens. And— it somehow feels like it's a switch that went, you know, like it was off and now it's on. And now everything is binary about is it from the off or the on or the before or the after or the yes or the no.

And it's so – and one of the things I appreciate about your writing is the nuance. And I think, you know, and that's what I hear you saying now of like trying to unpack these, you know – experiences and I went through the same thing. I think like with my own of just kind of first feeling and I know you

said a similar sentiment in your piece too, of like, am I the voice that like, there are a lot of other voices that should maybe be heard in this subject area. That's how I felt for myself. But I think that way of just trying to think, okay, how do we, how do you reprocess, but also allow yourself space to go and, Yes, it was that, but no, it wasn't that.

And also, I think I was very and have always been mindful of, gosh, I don't want to be getting on some bus that everybody's getting on. And like we, you know, it's always been really important to me to sort of differentiate the, yeah, there was abuse of power, but it was not sexual assault. You know, my experiences from 98.

Really? I don't know. I mean, I always come away from our conversations and feel sort of renewed and like I've thought about something in a different way. And I've always been so impressed by how you've, especially over the years, like you've become an unpacker, like a real unpacker of looking at things and reevaluating and I've

heard you talk about things in ways that are so like emotionally and spiritually impressive, if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, it's interesting. I mean, we've known each other for a really long time, really long time.

It was, it was very, um, I mean, I'm crying, but it happened to you.

So I mean, just like, I think to explain, right. That the, uh, I had gone to temple, I think it was Yom Kippur. I'd gone to temple with some of my relatives here in New York and I wasn't a member of the congregation. And so the rabbi had used me as a negative example of something in his life. in his speech.

And it was, and it's interesting because I feel myself now, because I remember the moment of just, I just shut down. Like I just, I become so used to being publicly shamed in different ways. And so I think that it was jarring because it was an unexpected place. I just feel I can, it's like a cement wall just sort of comes down like a gate, you know? So you're so sweet.

So I like to ask everybody at the end if there is anything that you are working on reclaiming right now. And it doesn't have to necessarily be an emotional thing. It could be anything that you have lost or had stolen that you're trying to get back. So it could be a memory or an object or, you know, or an experience. Yeah.

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky. Production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffen.

Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez-Wren and Emily Feldbrink. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louis.

Wow. And he also wrote 16 Candles based on, is it like just seeing your headshot?

And while I've known Molly for 25 years, I had never actually talked to her about being catapulted into fame at such a young age. And so as someone who became well-known overnight unintentionally, I was interested to talk to Molly about how she navigated becoming a superstar after acting in a string of coming-of-age films.

um he said the girl that i wrote this about and so we met and um yeah and it's an extraordinary story yeah i mean it's pretty wild and did you know that at the time like going into the film were you aware of that of just sort of the impact that you had on someone to as a muse like to be that young and you inspired this entire film

Like strange experiences. still complimentary or strange, weird, creepy in any way?

It's interesting to become, I found for me in my experiences to sort of reach an age that other people were at when they were doing certain things and you just think, in a million fucking years, I would never like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to have a relationship with a 24 year old or 22 year old, you know, or, you know, it's sort of that idea of writing something.

And, and you think about the things that are in 16 candles. And when you look at it as an adult through the prism of someone staring at your photo in 16 Yeah. So, I mean, look, I know he's such an important person in your life.

Anyway, I hope you find something to connect to in our conversation, and thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible. Visit audible.com slash reclaiming to find your next listen. Thank you to our sponsor, Reformation. Visit reformation.com to see why they're my go-to for stylish and sustainable fashion. Thank you so much for doing this. Welcome to Reclining.

Knowing we were chatting, I was thinking about when we met and how it had actually only been a year since I had become a public person. And my experience had been so weird of... Going to bed one night with only a few thousand people ever having met me or knowing me and then waking up and it's, you know, I'm all of a sudden a public person.

And so this entry into public life was really different than most people's, but you were so young. And so I just... When did you realize you were famous? And, like, did you? And what did that mean to you? And did you know of other famous people and then connected that you were one of them? Or did you, you know—

Or a fucking lot famous. You're iconic.

This was, I think, when I was a teenager, when I started to make the John Hughes movies. Wow. Was there one, like, an incident or a moment that you sort of felt... Oh, I now feel that fear.

Yeah. Well, and also it's always been interesting to me from my experiences of thinking about like that we say taking a picture and because people are taking something from you. And a lot of times with paparazzi, it's without your consent, you know, so that you're somehow – a free commodity for people because you become a public person. Yeah. I can't believe actually that you were three.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, hi. Monica here. For today's episode, I spoke with my badass friend, Kara Swisher.

I want to start out talking about just sort of setting the stage for how we became friends. So I think we first connected on Twitter and then through our mutual friend, Brooke Hammerling, a bit more. Then you kindly were interviewed for a documentary on public shaming cancel culture. Yes, for that great documentary you did. Thank you, that I exec produced.

Yeah.

And did you, one of your brothers became a doctor?

I think if they probably have an emotional charge or a trauma to them, they're probably still in there somewhere.

I don't want to derail us too much, but I had a really unique experience when we were filming a documentary for the 20-year anniversary. 20-year anniversary of the impeachment, and the director of the doc had FOIAed some video. Oh, I love you. And so they had found this video from when my family and I had gone to a radio address.

And we still didn't meet in person because of COVID then. And then the first time we actually met in person was when you interviewed me for Sway. My favorite interview.

And so I had a very clear memory of that day, and then they asked me to watch the footage. And I realized in that gap between hearing about the footage and watching it that I thought, what am I going to do? What the fuck if it's not how I remembered it? It's not, right? But it was. It was. Okay, well, you have a good memory then.

But it was just so interesting because that's such an unusual experience, right, to hold a memory. But now we have digital memories of everything now.

And it's good. It's healthy. I mean, do you think some of that comes from what you experienced with your dad's passing?

Uh-huh. Not fine, but... And does some of that come from... Because I know that there was then that point where your mom got remarried, right? Yes, a terrible person. Right. And so he... Still not dead, unfortunately. Oh, he's not? No. Okay. He's tried to reach me. And is he... Are he and your mom still married? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. No, they broke up.

You said he was cruel in ways I can't even explain.

I can explain. Yeah.

Oh, thanks, Kara. That was, it was special. It was. It was special. I mean, it's funny because I was thinking about how we did it in that music studio.

I understand falling in love with a narcissist. Yes, you do. Exactly. Right. What do you do?

Right.

How did you know with your stepdad to trust yourself and your sense of self instead of what most young people do, which is absorb the negativity that an adult is giving to them?

And I got it right away. Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor. This year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts, and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Just open the app and tap into your well-being with advice and insight from leading influencers, experts, and professionals.

It was so janky.

You'll find titles that enrich your life, relax you, and the ones I like best, titles that make you laugh. Whatever your focus or interest, there's a listen for it on Audible. Ultimately, it's all about starting good habits. Making a positive change is the best goal you can make for yourself and Audible can help. There's so much opportunity and more to imagine when you listen.

Let Audible help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash reclaiming. Thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses.

But if you're like me, you may have thought, that's all they do. Well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year, they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better, I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes, and bags.

I know. Because we did it in the morning, and I'm sure they were recording all night. But I realized, too, I was thinking about that it actually might have been a good thing because— Because you were high. Yeah, and it calmed me down, and I was so nervous. I was really nervous. I was terrified to be interviewed by you.

But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus, it really holds up since they make everything with super high-quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world, and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two.

If you're looking for clothes you want to feel great in and feel better about, head to Reformation.com. I think I read a quote, I'm going to butcher it, but the gist of it being kind of like when you've lost a parent at such a young age, like you can't give any fucks anymore. You can't. There are no fucks to give anymore because you have the time.

Oh, good. Well, thank you.

I'll try to not piss you off. No, you don't.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, even though I knew you were kind, but because you're so exacting and intuitive— And I felt like if anybody was going to smell my imposter syndrome, it was going to be you. You're not an imposter is the thing. I know, but— If you were, it would be harder. I know, but it's that— I think I'm an authentic person, but trying to find myself out there as an adult in different ways has been hard.

It was interesting. I read somewhere this, just this sentence or statement, whatever, about that we never know when our last breath is. We don't. We don't. And I just thought that sort of reframed.

I mean, is it in a way, is it? jujitsu-ing, like how people experience death.

I remember I was asking you if you knew anybody single at some point. You were like, here's the deal. If you end up with someone I set you up with and they have a plane, I get to ride on the plane whenever I want. I was like, that is a totally fair deal. Yeah.

Yes.

Oh, my gosh.

He sent you an email, right? Yeah. What was the subject?

Yeah. I've only met him once, but I was seated next to him at the Vanity Fair Oscar dinner one year. So this was pre-pandemic. Yep. I remember that one. Yeah. He was single then.

But here's what was really interesting to me.

No, no. This must have been 2018. I remember. And so it was so interesting because he answered every question I asked him. Yeah, he used to be that way. But he didn't... He didn't ask me any questions and it's like a really long dinner. Yeah. So I basically took to just pretending he asked me the question I asked him back and then I answered. Oh, wow.

Because I was like, I don't know how to have a conversation this way. So, I mean, I had asked him about like if he hadn't become Elon Musk and Tesla and all that, what would he have wanted to be? And so he said a science fiction writer. Yeah, he loves science fiction. Yeah. So he said he used to write it when he was younger. He did.

Do you feel like you sort of got like a Jedi school, went to a Jedi school for these kinds of things? Elon Musk's and they got their next.

Sure, but look at your record.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I think that surprised me in reading your book is that I now knew you, so I knew you to be kind, but there was sort of a mushy part to you as a parent, which was a little surprising to me, I think. Like, I knew you loved your kids, but there's a real...

Lesbians are good at that. I froze my eggs. Oh, you did? Yeah. And my doctor had me do... And I did around... We used some of the eggs and made embryos. And that whole process of buying jizz on the internet is... Yeah, at the time, I did it the old-fashioned way. It's so weird.

What happens now if he hears the... I don't think he knows that. Okay. I think that's an experiment to do. Like to watch Law and Order with him and see if he twitches or something.

Yeah. You talked a bit in the book too about how your experiences, sorry, I keep going back to when you were younger, but it's super fascinating to me, even though you were five and I was 24. But this idea of disruption in those traumatic events that put you on a different path.

Yeah. You have a tattoo, right? I have several. Okay. I was so surprised. I did not peg you as a tattoo.

I can't now.

Right. And you were, like, the directions you were initially thinking about, was it foreign service? Yeah. Yeah. But then you went into journalism. Yes.

How did that devastating loss when you were so young end up becoming something that was like a superpower for you?

You probably know her as a tech journalist, an author, and host of both Pivot with Scott Galloway and On with Kara Swisher. So I've always known Kara to be smart as fuck, direct and kind, but I didn't expect her to reveal kind of such a soft side that she did in our conversation. And truthfully, it made me love her even more. So anyway, I hope you find something to connect with in our chat.

When I read that bit in the Washington Post, it was like I just wanted to pick up little Kara and put you on my lap and give you some cuddles.

Yeah. Do you think he would have ended up as the same person?

This reminds me of, so I had this funny experience reading your book, which is I like to go out to dinner by myself sometimes and read. And I laughed out loud so, it was so loud that I had to apologize to the people next to me. Never apologize. And it was for laughing. I know, but you know, other people are, I was at bungalows.

And so it was like, you know, and you were talking about your prick to productivity. Productivity ratio, yeah. Okay, you explain it because you'll do it better.

With all the discussion about men and the men in technology in Silicon Valley, what do you think... the tech world and in particular social media would look like if we had had... Women. If it had been run by women.

What is something that you have lost that you would like to find or reclaim or recreate? And it could be a physical object, a place, or a part of your identity. Oh, it would have to be my dad.

No, I remember. I remember. And the height of AIDS.

Me too. Wouldn't you? Oh, yeah.

Kara, thank you so much for this. Thank you, Monica.

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky. Production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffen.

Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez-Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louis.

Yeah. Well, one of the things that I admire so much about you is that you've just you have sort of a confidence and self-possession in a way. And I think the best example of that is what I think of as the toast story. Will you tell it?

Very liberal certain ways.

Thank you.

And thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. So let's get into it. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible. Visit audible.com slash reclaiming to find your next listen. Thank you to our sponsor, Reformation. Visit reformation.com to see why they're my go-to for stylish and sustainable fashion. Kara Swisher, welcome to Reclaim. Thank you. Thank you.

I was just going to say, I like sourdough.

I know. Yeah, yeah. That's your weakness. Yes, exactly, exactly. Well, you definitely, you have lots of superpowers. And I think one of the other things that's so interesting about you is that you're sort of this modern day Cassandra, right? you know, for what's happening in technology. I'm so sorry to be right. Yeah, exactly.

But I think it was like in the 90s, you predicted sort of the digitization of media, right? You had a saying of something. Everything that can be digitized will be digitized. Yeah, exactly. And then you told Mark Zuckerberg that Facebook, right, that there was like Facebook could be used as a propaganda machine. Yes.

He's playing a—what do they say? It's like chess on 12 levels?

Uh-huh. That's very interesting.

So we're in this what the fuck moment now. Can you give me two or three predictions of what you see coming down the pike now that Trump's president?

For anyone who doesn't know you, can you give them context?

You know, what I sort of wonder just because— As you mentioned before when we were talking just briefly of I've done a fair amount of work in the anti-bullying space. Yeah. And so I'm so disheartened at this moment and at the same time feel like, okay, if the kind of work we can do helps one kid. Sure. Right? Mm-hmm.

I'm kidding.

Very good parts of it. But mostly it's negative. Right. I mean, do you have thoughts yet about what we can do to preserve it, to bring back? Well, it didn't come back. You're saying bring back what? It was never good. Why? No, I think there was a sense—I think there was always the potential for— Community. Right.

And so—and I also think not only community, but I think that there's, you know, there's a sense of empathy in a way that can be fostered by seeing and understanding other cultures, by hearing more stories. That's correct.

But it's rare, like the ice bucket challenge, I think, was something that, you know, for every one of those, there's 10 really terrible examples. One of the things I wanted to ask you about was around these early experiences you had in your family. And you wrote this really incredible article in 1989 for the Washington Post. And there's this quote from there.

And I thought maybe you want to read it. Sure.

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names, about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I I I I I I I I I I I I I I

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again.

So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up. They connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful.

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our health care system.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Nick. This is Jack. It is Wednesday, Savice Wednesday, April 30th, and today's pod is the best one yet, and this is a T-Boy. The top three pop business news stories you need to know today. Cha-ching, cha-ching, Jack, the S&P 500 is up for the sixth straight session. Not too shabby. Main reason? Trump signed two executive orders giving car companies some more tariff relief.

So besties, despite a trade war, despite recessionaries, despite these La Boo Boo Dolls being made in China, they have become the ultimate affordable splurge of the moment. So Jack, what's the takeaway for our buddies over at La Boo Boo? Right now, people will pay a premium for escapism. Yeah, it is. Interesting observation from interviews of buyers of labubu dolls done by the New York Times.

Because every pasta has a different shape. So every pasta requires a different boil time. If that orchetti is undercooked, that is literally a choking hazard. But here's the solution. The first ever pasta playlist. Get this. Barilla, the world's biggest pasta company, just launched a playlist on Spotify. Specifically for cooking pasta.

Labubus are serving as conversation starters. Specifically, labubu dolls open the door to a harmless, politics-free chat. It's like discussing sports or talking about the weather. Ask me about my labubu doll. No one's getting worked up. No, they're not. Everything seems supercharged with politics these days. LaBooBoo dolls, they're not going to trigger anybody.

I mean, Jack, it's like we're buying LaBooBoo dolls as a type of emotional juice cleanse. In media, politics drives clicks and consumption. But in other industries, politics is a turnoff. LaBooBoo dolls show how being politics-free right now can be a huge competitive advantage. Jack, can you whip up the takeaways for us for Savice Wednesday? Lyft's CEO published hashtag thought leadership.

A shareholder letter where he invented a couple new words. So, Yetis, to avoid your product getting inshitified, avoid additive bias and go into Falcon mode. For our second story. On a report that Amazon would add tariff fees to the checkout, the White House got mad. Amazon relented. And after 100 days, we can't find a single major company that has refused Trump on anything.

And our third and final story. LaBooBoo dolls are selling on eBay for 10 times the retail price. This is Beanie Babies 2.0. Besties, ask us about our LaBooBoo dolls, because people will pay a premium for escapism. But yetis, this pod's not over yet. Here's what else you need to know today. First, last week, we interviewed the CEO of Duolingo, and he had a wild take on AI that just got an update.

He said to us last week that in the age of AI, the artists will beat the nerds. But yesterday, he went even further. The Duolingo CEO announced that Duolingo was going AI first. What does that mean? Well, starting with contractors. No more contractors at Duolingo. That's right. They're using AI instead.

And second, on Monday, Canadians elected Mark Carney as prime minister, the liberal candidate and former hockey goalie who played in the net over at Harvard. The Conservative Party in Canada was set to win until Trump got involved in the election. Trump's 51st state rhetoric swung the public opinion back toward the Liberal Party, it appears.

Carney's goal is to form new alliances with the European Union and other allies. to replace their dependence on the U.S. And see if the maple leaves can actually stay in the playoffs. And finally, the Dubai chocolate phenomenon. The viral chocolate concept we covered two weeks ago just hit a whole new level.

Dubai chocolate, which includes pistachio nuts, as the key ingredient, is causing a pistachio shortage. Look at this. Prices for pistachios are up 40% in the last year, driven by, that's right, record pistachio demand in Dubai chocolate. Now time for the best fact yet, which today is actually a couple of corrections Jack and I got to make to the pod.

Yesterday, we told you about the Washington Commanders and their new football stadium. Their new complex is coming to Washington, D.C. It's opening in 2030. Although we had a little geographic oopsie, didn't we, Jack? Yeah, we said they currently play in Virginia. That was wrong. They currently play in Maryland. As you can tell, Jack and I have not lived in the greater Washington, D.C. area.

And our second correction is something we said yesterday about colors. That's right. Veronica from Chicago, doing logistics, pointed out that UNC's famous blue is not called Chapel Hill Blue, as we refer to it as. It's called Carolina Blue. As you can tell, the Tar Heels fan base don't want to mess with them. Don't want to mess with them. And I need to repeat what I said yesterday. Piper, no!

It's a series of songs that time up with the cooking time of different pastas. Okay, so DJ Jack, what do we got there on the pasta playlist? Like, what are you going to sing? Well, the capellini, or as you call it in your house, angel hairnet. That only cooks for three minutes. It's a quickie. So that playlist is a single Sabrina Carpenter song. Spaghetti? It's a little thicker.

Clearly, Jack and I need some lunch. Yetis, you look fantastic today. One sec, Jack. You know, if you listen to our entire show today, you could cook two lasagnas. Is Barilla going to add our podcast to their playlist? I think they're going to add our podcast to the pasta playlist. You listen to our show, you can kick two lasagnas for a family of four. Wow. Yeah, not too shabby. Pretty impressive.

It must be like the automatic lasagna, you know? I'm going to pretend I didn't do that. Besties, the best way you can help T-Boy and grow the show is tell a buddy today, H-Y-H-T-B-O-Y. Have you had the best one yet? And then check out our weekly show, The Best Idea Yet, for the untold origin story of the Starbucks Frappuccino.

Side note, I just got disowned by my in-laws for saying automatic lasagna. Let's cut his mic. We're cutting Jack's mic. Besties, if you know, you know. We'll see you tomorrow. And before we go, a happy birthday to Yeti Aubrey Kempen celebrating down in lovely Louisiana. Happy birthday to Cindy M. in Los Angeles, California. And Benito Maxwell Miranda gets a half birthday shout out.

Celebrate the... down in Charleston. And congratulations to Don Birdsall, who's retiring after 35 years in higher ed. This CPA and doctorate holder is a proud Yeti of five years. Amazing, Jack. And Kelsey Black, the legendary Yeti, interviewed by Vulture Magazine this week down in Pflugerville, Texas. Kelsey is getting the business out there, baby.

Kelsey, I came across this mention, like totally unrelated to you. I was like, I know Kelsey. Yeah.

That's the Kelsey. That's our Yeti Kelsey. And Alicia Chavez and Jeanette Rodriguez are engaged in Hollister, California. They listen every morning together. Guys, let's see some ring picks. Congratulations on the incredible new era. And congrats to Shelby Lohr, who just defended her dissertation in history at Princeton University.

I don't know if it works this way, but Shelby deserves an A. I think it's pass-fail. Actually, I don't know. I didn't go to Princeton. Shelby, we give you an A. This is Jack. I own stock of Lyft. Yeah, that's right. Lyft. Amazon, too. And Nick and I both own ETFs of the S&P 500. You didn't forget to salt the water, did you? Oh, my God. Oh, Mom! The water! The Nemo!

If you like the best one yet, you can listen ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us a little bit about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. We want to get to know you.

It takes nine minutes to cook. So they whipped up a nine-minute playlist of four Jay-Z songs. Penne. That's a thick noodle. That requires 12 minutes spoiling. So you're going to listen to five Madonna songs on the penne pasta playlist. When the songs are over... Pour it into the colander. And now, Jack, I believe I have cooked you my famous bucatini carbonara. Have I not, my friend?

It's a two-cook, two-step process, right? It is, it is, because you boil the pasta, but then you fry it in the pan with the pancetta, and you know what that means. That calls for free bird. Leonard Skinner's nine-minute free bird. If you're cooking carbonara with a bucatini, play free bird. It turns out the secret to cooking fusilli perfectly. Oh, one sec, Jack. It's over boiling. Oh, no! Oh, no!

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

So Wall Street is looking for the one-week win streak. In the meantime, Jack and I found three fantastic stories for you. Jack, what's on today's T-Boy? For our first story, do the words Falcon Mode or Enshitification mean anything to you? No, they don't, Jack. I don't know what any of that means.

For our first story, Lyft's CEO just published a fascinating shareholder letter, the likes of which we've never seen before. It mentions addition bias, Falcon mode, and then shitification. This is the CEO letter that you should read this year. Now, Yetis, few rivalries have diverged as much as Uber versus Lyft. Yeah, Uber and Lyft isn't Coke versus Pepsi anymore.

It's like Coke versus Fanta at this point. Because in the last five years, Uber stock has tripled to an all-time high, while Lyft stock is down 50%. A $5 billion company known as Lyft is still worth just one Lyft. Just one Lyft. But Lyft got a new CEO two years ago named David Risher. And David is trying to give Lyft a little bit of a jumpstart.

He published an annual shareholder letter on the business. Now, Jamie Dimon does this. Warren Buffett does this. Typically, a shareholder letter looks like an economic diary. But the Lyft CEO's shareholder letter this year didn't feel like a typical shareholder letter, did it, Jack? In fact, he referenced Wicked the musical, and he said that Lyft will defy gravity.

Again, this is a corporate letter the CEO is putting out, but this one from Lyft was like given main character energy. Like it was like a thought leadership remix, basically. It was the most thought leader, like LinkedIn thirsty post I've ever seen. But we actually really enjoyed it. We did because he basically invented new words.

He went full Merriam-Webster on the whole concept of a letter to us shareholders. And the two words that stood out to us were in shitification. and falcon mode. Okay, Jack, let's pause the pod for a second. Just focus on falcon mode for a moment. Now, yetis, we have told you about founder mode. That's when the CEO is really hands-on with all the details. And we've told you about manager mode.

That's when the CEO delegates. But falcon mode, Jack? That's a third option right in between. Yes, it is. Consider the falcon, besties. The falcon bird of prey must make a 20,000-mile migration every year. But they can't stay up in the air for all 20,000 miles, can they? So what they do is the Falcon swoops down only for specific opportunities, just for critical needs like getting food.

So Falcon mode at a company is when the CEO keeps a high level, broad perspective of what's going on. Like a Falcon flying in the sky. But then dives in occasionally to fix the critical company issues. Like seeing a field mouse that you just got to eat. The example for Lyft was ride cancellations. Oh, ride cancellations. You know, this is the second top complaint at Lyft.

The first complaint is surge pricing, of course. But the second is when you've been waiting seven minutes for your Lyft to pick you up, and then the Lyft cancels, and you have to start the whole process all over again. Igor in the Camry, what are you doing to me, man? I'm just trying to get to the studio and record a podcast.

Because the CEO of Lyft just dropped both of those bombs in the most entertaining shareholder letter ever.

Now, Lyft's CEO told us in the letter that the reason drivers cancel is that Lyft didn't give the driver enough information about the trip before making them accept or reject it. After accepting the ride, the driver saw the details, but then realized it was inconvenient, so they canceled on us. The solution is just provide the details up front.

Give the driver the full picture before they click accept. And you know what, Yetis? That single tweak in the Lyft product cut their cancellation rates by more than half. Only 5% of rides get canceled now compared to 14% of rides a couple of years ago. So Falcon Mode, it may be a third way to run the business. But Jack, I think there's a more fascinating word we've got to share with you.

A word that Borderline requires, beep, a bleep. So Jack, what's the takeaway for all our buddies over at Lyft? The greatest risk to a great product is in shitification. Enshitification. Yeah, it is. That's a new term coined by journalist Cory Doctorow. It describes when a great product starts getting bad.

of the year and we read it all for you for our second story the president and amazon got in a very public fight yesterday it dominated the news cycle get this donald trump called jeff bezos on the phone we'll tell you the business beef for our third and final story rihanna dualipa and johnny depp every celebrity is collecting something called labubu dolls labubu dolls labubu is the new beanie baby but here's their growth strategy

When a once great product pursues bigger profits, it causes the customer experience to suffer. Well, one reason why enshitification happens, according to the Lyft CEO, is something called additive bias. Additive bias is when instead of fixing a product's problems, you add a new feature and think that that will somehow make it all better.

Yeah, like instead of fixing the boarding process on an airplane, you just add boarding priority up charges.

No, it actually made the problem worse, airlines. Well, Lyft's CEO basically acknowledged that this is an issue facing Lyft, but it's also facing all of the tech industry. He pointed out artificial intelligence, where every chatbot suddenly gets new features, new bells and whistles. But what about like the underlying hallucination problem?

Well, Jack, the result of that bias for adding things is in shitification. The product gets worse. So, Yetis, try out Falcon Mode to fix your additive bias and make sure to avoid in shitification. Yes. For our second story, Amazon was reportedly going to add a tariff fee to the checkout when you buy something from Amazon, but then the White House heard and gave them a call.

How Amazon responded says something big about Trump's first 100 days. Now, Yetis, last week, remember, we introduced you to a concept we call the tariff fee. A separate surcharge that we're already seeing on our receipts. It's basically a corporate way of saying, hey, this price hike, it's not our fault. Don't blame us. Blame the trade war.

Our prediction then was that the specific term you choose for the price hike would become politicized. Like some companies may label the tariff fee as a Trump fee. Which implies this is Trump's fault. Or other companies may call it the China fee. Which implies this is China's fault. Basically, the term you choose for the tariff fee of a price hike carries some political baggage.

And that came true yesterday. This was the big business beef. First, Puck News reported that Amazon would, quote, soon show how much Trump's tariffs are adding to the price of each product. Basically, a terror feat. And the White House was pissed. The press secretary said in front of all the news outlets that would be considered a hostile and political act if Amazon did that.

And then things just escalated really fast. Like, President Trump literally called Jeff Bezos, billionaire founder of Amazon, on the phone. He basically said, what the hell? I thought you were on my side, Bezos. And then the press secretary fired back with another point about Amazon bringing in President Biden to the situation.

The press secretary said, why didn't Amazon do that when President Biden hiked inflation to the highest level in 40 years? Now, yetis, one way to think about this is that President Trump kind of has a phantom seat in every corporate boardroom right now. So it was no surprise to us that five hours later, Amazon announced they're not planning to add tariff fees and they never will in the future.

So like if Uppa Baby, the stroller company, raises the price of their strollers from $900 to $1,200, they're not going to call it a $300 surcharge on Amazon. On Amazon, the increased price must simply be an increased price. There can't be a new label separating out any kind of tariff or import fee.

And the reason Amazon's doing this besties is, well, from their perspective, they rely on the federal government too much right now to be on Trump's bad side. Think about it. Trump could order the U.S. Postal Service to stop delivering Amazon packages. Or Trump could stop letting Amazon use NASA launch pads for their space and satellite ambitions.

Or Trump could block any acquisition Amazon tries for the next four years. Oh, Bezos, you want to buy TikTok? Cute kid, not happening. It doesn't matter if these blockages are legal or not. Even if they get overturned in courts, it could cause chaos for Amazon.

So in the past, yetis, federal government money and federal services, they were mostly given or available to all companies as long as they didn't break the law. In the Trump era, federal money and federal services is conditional on supporting the president's agenda. Like we said, Trump kind of has a phantom seat in every corporate boardroom.

So Jack, what's the takeaway for our buddies who are over at Amazon? After 100 days, no corporation has defied President Trump. Now, yetis, no president has used the power of the office to pressure or punish individuals, companies, or trade partners like this one has. In geopolitics, a number of countries have pushed back against Trump, namely China, Canada, and the European Union.

In academics, Harvard University has pushed back against President Trump. In law, most law firms cave to his demands, but some are suing him in court. But interestingly, in corporate America, we can't find a single major example of a CEO showing resistance to anything the president has demanded of them. CEOs have urged him in private calls and Oval Office meetings to change tariff policies.

See them. There's a Forrest Gump line that will explain that cliffhanger. Yeah, that's so true. But yet, before we hit that wonderful mix of stories. I mean, what a mix of stories. The most fascinating, interesting mix of stories. As someone who married into an Italian family, and someone whose business partner, best friend, and co-host is half Italian. Si, a vero, Jack.

And we know CEOs, like, think like economists, like they don't like government involvement and they don't like trade wars. But in public... Can you think of a single major CEO who has refused or disagreed with the president on anything? In the first 100 days of this presidency, we can't find a single one.

For our third and final story, the fastest growing toy in the world right now is the Laboo Boo doll. Somehow scary and cute at the same time. Laboo Boo dolls are surging right now, thanks to one sneaky tactic. This is so good. You can't see them. You can't. But yeties, to give you a little background on how Jack and I work for you every day, one way we source stories is Google Trends.

We track what people are searching because that's a window into your desires. Now, interestingly, the term blind box is at an all-time high this week. More people are searching for blind boxes than ever in history. More on that in a moment. But another top search on Google right now is La Boo Boo. Ha ha. As in Laboo-Boo dolls. Not the Goo-Goo dolls. No, no, no, no, no, no. Laboo-Boo dolls.

Laboo-Boo dolls, which kind of look like a Furby and a Teletubby had a baby of some kind. This little toy is enjoying a craze like Beanie Babies mania right now. They have snaggle teeth, bunny ears, a sneaky little grin on these Laboo-Boo dolls. And people want them. Yeah, they do, they do. They look like the animals from Where the Wild Things Are, but like they're on something, too.

Like Hello Kitty's Gen Z freaky cousin. This product is produced by a Chinese toy maker called Pop Mart, and it's booming in popularity. They're selling for $13 to $16 each, and honestly, they fit in the palm of your hand, and then you clip them onto something like a keychain. Dua Lipa has one and wears it publicly. Rihanna has one clipped onto her Louis Vuitton bag.

And what we're saying is that the new celebrity status symbol is actually a five-inch $13 monster doll that you put on. on a handbag. And Nick, these are selling for like $2,000 a pop on eBay right now, right? They are because they've used a growth hack at Labubu that the Beanie Babies would never even have the furry guts to pull off. You can't see your Labubu doll before you buy them.

I can tell you that the biggest crime against humanity is overcooking pasta. Jack, that fettuccine is al dente. We are spinning it out, man. It's a red flag.

We repeat, you can't see the doll. It's a blind drop or what they call blind boxes. Basically, they ship the dolls in boxes that you can't see through with no indication on the outside what is inside. This is a mystery box that you buy. You could be buying a pink Labubu doll, a striped one, an astronaut one, a bikini one. You don't know which one you get until it arrives at your door. Yeah.

Now, this distribution strategy has worked because it keeps the fans interested in buying more Labubus. Like Forrest Gump. You never know what you're going to get. Yeah, it's the life is like a box of chocolates approach to product creations. Now, this seems like a customer unfriendly move, like not telling you what you're buying, but it's working. Labubu is a profit puppy.

Get this, Labubu's revenues hit $400 million this year. That is up 700% from last year. I still can't get over the fact that it rhymes with The Goo Goo Dolls. Did you see that one guy bought 12 of them and TSA noticed and like at the airport, they like helped him see what was in the boxes. Must've created a little scene. Oh, I think they shut down SFO for like a day because of this.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Yes.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Must be nice.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

We have.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Oh. To paint it green.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

$2 raise.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

It was.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Literally.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

We were licking it.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

$35?

That's what it stands for.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Baby. You snickers. Better?

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

Yeah, they did.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

You've arrived at your destination.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.

I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky wherever you get your podcasts.